An errata for Warlocks?

[Rystil Arden]

1) I would hope that the fighter would have a better weapon to use anyway. If a party has more than 1 magic weapon, the fighter should be using the best one, and the Warlock would benefit from the extra one(s).

2) Abilities are expensive, if you buy them. Not every campaign is the same. We don't all play that you can "buy" new abilities for a weapon anytime you have the cash handy. Sometimes we have to use what we find (what the DM provides us with), and we can't always pick and choose the abilities of our weapons.

3) There are times where you can't make itterative attacks. In these instances, a magic weapon + Hideous Blow will come in handy for an extra umph of damage.

Just because I use the word expensive does not mean that I am assuming that players buy magic weapons at a store. I used the value of the item based on the assumption that DMs try to use the average wealth/treasure guidelines in the DMG. Thus, if the DM chooses to drop a +1 wounding rapier in the treasure bin, that's fine, but if the PCs are lower than 7th level, that one item alone is worth more than any one PC should have. If the fighter, as you wisely suggested, gets the best weapon, then that would mean the party has *two* weapons that are each above an entire character's net worth. Realistically, I doubt a DM will give out single weapons worth more than, say, half of the character's net worth with enough frequency that the party has enough to give to the warlock. This means that the warlock will have had access to Eldritch Chain for 3 levels and be ready for Eldritch Cone in 2 levels by the time he has a weapon that has any useful pecial doo-dads to strike around with. Now, you are absolutely right that some rare times there is no opportunity to get in a full attack, you have a powerful weapon for the warlock, and the warlock can't stand at a safe distance and use a better shape invocation, and so if the Hideous Blow power were a free class ability, I might use it once or twice in a campaign, but only in ideal circumstances. Would it be worth it to get this ability for free then? Absolutely. But it is worth one of my few precious invocations known, that I can use at will, to get this ability that I might use a few times? Not at all. And I won't even get into the fact that it decreases your range, makes it not a touch attack, and renders you vulnerable to getting smashed into pulp.

 

[Singing Smurf]

Mithril armor

Yes, Mistwell got it right, mithral only lets you use class abilities that require certain types of armour (in the DMG it specifically calls mithral out as being treated as one category lighter for purposes of class abilities with armour type restrictions like the barbarian's fast movement). It doesn't say that it works this way for purposes of proficiencies. And unlike the wizard, who doesn't care too much (at least for most spells) that he's taking *gasp* an attack roll penalty, the warlock is not going to like this.

Actually, table 7-2 on page 168 of Races of the Wild settles this argument - mithril armor is one category lighter for all purposes, period, full stop.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, table 7-2 on page 168 of Races of the Wild settles this argument - mithril armor is one category lighter for all purposes, period, full stop.

Well, if they changed it in Races of the Wild, I'm not arguing. It was just the DMG that stated it Mistwell's way.

 

[brehobit]

I can't figure out why anyone would ever take the Hideous Blow invocation. It seems a waste of a good invocation spot. You still only get one attack per round, so by wasting that invocation all you have done is traded your touch attack attack at range for a melee attack and gained a little extra damage from a weapon. Hardly seems worth it, unless you are talking about a really jazzed up weapon, in which case you are better off getting itterative attacks with that weapon anyway if it's that good (especially if you cast divine power on yourself and get a fighter's full BAB).

The only way I could see it working out would be if you designed a spring attack character who would only get one attack anyway, but then again, why not just stay at range and get another cool invocation instead?

So, what am I missing?

Well...

Barb 1/Warlock 7 with a +1 spiked chain and a 14 STR. The HB is doing 2d4+4+4d6. That is 9 from the weapon and 14 from the blast (on average). He only has a BAB of +6, so the second attack is pretty unlikely to hit. Also, between flight and picking on the casters (which flight let me do fairly easily) I was often moving around and attacking in a given round. So the full attack thing wasn't an option. Also, the bonus effects (say sickness or fright or whatever else) from the HB are quite nice.

I found it a tactical bonus to only need an attack action to do all of my attack (either HB or EB) and to be able to move (via flight) to whereever else I needed to be. With the reach weapon I was often able to avoid any AoO (the baddy was focusing on someone else and didn't want to close with me).

So on the whole, I found HB to be effective. But I designed the character around it.

 

[Rystil Arden]

What about the fact that HB is a melee attack and thus prone to missing? Assuming the Bbn1/Wrl7 has 14 Dex as well as 14 Str, that gives +9 to hit with the chain and +8 to hit with the blast. Against a randomly-chosen CR 8 encounter, skullcrusher ogre sergeant (this is just the first one I turned to), you will hit on a 14 with the HB, dealing an expected damage of 23 (9 chain + 14 blast) * 7/20 (chance to hit) = 8.05 damage. With a regular blast, you hit on a 2, dealing expected damage of 14 (all blast) * 18/20 = 12.6. Thus, the normal blast deals more damage, and won't bring Eldritch Chain into this. I admit that sometimes, rarely, the HB has a higher expected damage (at level 8, this is mainly against enemies with lower than 20 AC, which are likely rare), but surely this isn't worth the risk of rushing into melee combined with the opportunity cost of selecting HB as an incantation.

 

[brehobit]

What about the fact that HB is a melee attack and thus prone to missing? Assuming the Bbn1/Wrl7 has 14 Dex as well as 14 Str, that gives +9 to hit with the chain and +8 to hit with the blast. Against a randomly-chosen CR 8 encounter, skullcrusher ogre sergeant (this is just the first one I turned to), you will hit on a 14 with the HB, dealing an expected damage of 23 (9 chain + 14 blast) * 7/20 (chance to hit) = 8.05 damage. With a regular blast, you hit on a 2, dealing expected damage of 14 (all blast) * 18/20 = 12.6. Thus, the normal blast deals more damage, and won't bring Eldritch Chain into this. I admit that sometimes, rarely, the HB has a higher expected damage (at level 8, this is mainly against enemies with lower than 20 AC, which are likely rare), but surely this isn't worth the risk of rushing into melee combined with the opportunity cost of selecting HB as an incantation.

So there are 3 choices:
1) Attack with chain and not HB. For this character this will do 9 points of damage on average per hit. Has the possiblilty of a full attack with an extra attack at -5

2) Attack with HB. Same attack bonus as above. Damage is 23 on the average. One attack. Gets EB extras (fright, etc.)

3) Attack with EB from a range. 14 points of damage. Touch attack. Gets EB extras.

1, IMO, sucks for this character. The extra attack is likely to miss, and even if both hit, you are still doing less damage then one hit from HB.

2 and 3 are harder. 3 has huge advantages (touch attack) but does less then 2/3 of the damage. This character has an 18 DEX, so the EB is really a good option. But it removes the real possbility of AoOs. Those provide some degree of tactical control. And against casters you are probably looking at a small difference (at 8th level at least) between their touch AC and their normal AC. (non-clerics at least). Plus by closing (with a reach weapon, a 5' step won't help) you've made them cast defensively (and perhaps lose the spell) or take the AoO (and perhaps lose the spell).

My belief is that closing with casters is the right thing to do with this character. Staying far, far away (ideally via flight) from most everyone else is probably the right option. But the flight thing (at 40' for this character) can let you close much more easily with casters then just about anyone.

Also, closing with the big baddy to allow for flanking for the rogue can be really nice when no one else can do it. (Can't get past the baddy's underlings fast enough, or just can't move fast enough) Even if only for a round (until the fighter can close).

 

[Rystil Arden]

So there are 3 choices:
1) Attack with chain and not HB. For this character this will do 9 points of damage on average per hit. Has the possiblilty of a full attack with an extra attack at -5

2) Attack with HB. Same attack bonus as above. Damage is 23 on the average. One attack. Gets EB extras (fright, etc.)

3) Attack with EB from a range. 14 points of damage. Touch attack. Gets EB extras.

1, IMO, sucks for this character. The extra attack is likely to miss, and even if both hit, you are still doing less damage then one hit from HB.

2 and 3 are harder. 3 has huge advantages (touch attack) but does less then 2/3 of the damage. This character has an 18 DEX, so the EB is really a good option. But it removes the real possbility of AoOs. Those provide some degree of tactical control. And against casters you are probably looking at a small difference (at 8th level at least) between their touch AC and their normal AC. (non-clerics at least). Plus by closing (with a reach weapon, a 5' step won't help) you've made them cast defensively (and perhaps lose the spell) or take the AoO (and perhaps lose the spell).

My belief is that closing with casters is the right thing to do with this character. Staying far, far away (ideally via flight) from most everyone else is probably the right option. But the flight thing (at 40' for this character) can let you close much more easily with casters then just about anyone.

Also, closing with the big baddy to allow for flanking for the rogue can be really nice when no one else can do it. (Can't get past the baddy's underlings fast enough, or just can't move fast enough) Even if only for a round (until the fighter can close).

Frankly, now that you used up several feats and incantations (plus a level in barbarian) to get these abilities, you are absolutely right that they will sometimes come in handy (pretty much only against arcane spellcasters, but maybe your DM throws a lot of those at you). However, against everything else, you'll just be using the basic EB, and so probably be better off if you had used the feats for something else (like the Meta-Spelllike feats or something, Maximised EB does more damage than an average HB, for instance, and Quicken, Empower, etc allows for even more, or maybe Focus and Specialisation in Ranged Spells).

 

[brehobit]

Frankly, now that you used up several feats and incantations (plus a level in barbarian) to get these abilities, you are absolutely right that they will sometimes come in handy (pretty much only against arcane spellcasters, but maybe your DM throws a lot of those at you). However, against everything else, you'll just be using the basic EB, and so probably be better off if you had used the feats for something else (like the Meta-Spelllike feats or something, Maximised EB does more damage than an average HB, for instance, and Quicken, Empower, etc allows for even more, or maybe Focus and Specialisation in Ranged Spells).

No disagreement from me. The character isn't optimal. But the question was "why ever use HB?" And for my character it does make sense on occasion. At lower level (say 2-5) it made perfect sense almost all the time because the weapon damage was more than half of the total damage. At these low levels the character was basicly a highish damage, lowish defense fighter with some cool abilities and a touch-based ranged attack that did moderate damage. As levels go up, the choices may start to hurt, but I don't think too badly.

I just like the flexibility provided by the character (HTH is fine, ranged is generally better, flying is really helpful, esp. if you are willing to enter HTH, etc.)

 

[Rystil Arden]

As I noted in #51, I agree that uses for Hideous Blow might show up, but since it wastes an incantation that could be something you want to use at will, it shouldn't have been selected in the first place. Assuming that you were able to get 14 or above in Str and Con as well as the usual Warlock favourites of Dex and Cha, the spiked-chain HB build will probably be an advantage against a few opponents from levels 4-9, after which it will become at best even with the other options (although maybe once or twice per adventure), becoming really far behind by level 11 (when a normal warlock starts being able to Eldritch Cone). I think the poster above really meant to ask why a warlock would spend a precious invocation on HB, not whether or not someone who did buy it would be able to use it sometimes.

 

[Saeviomagy]

As I noted in #51, I agree that uses for Hideous Blow might show up, but since it wastes an incantation that could be something you want to use at will, it shouldn't have been selected in the first place. Assuming that you were able to get 14 or above in Str and Con as well as the usual Warlock favourites of Dex and Cha, the spiked-chain HB build will probably be an advantage against a few opponents from levels 4-9, after which it will become at best even with the other options (although maybe once or twice per adventure), becoming really far behind by level 11 (when a normal warlock starts being able to Eldritch Cone). I think the poster above really meant to ask why a warlock would spend a precious invocation on HB, not whether or not someone who did buy it would be able to use it sometimes.

You are assuming a conventional build, and that's your problem. It's entirely possible to build a warlock that ditches dex and cha, focussing on strength and con. For such a character, hideous blow is a good deal. Such a character might move on to other melee tactics - a few sneak attack dice, bleeding wound, staggering strike, shock trooper, elusive target etc.

Sure hideous blow isn't for a high dex, low strength, range oriented character. Neither is, say, weapon focus (greataxe). Simple solution: don't take it.