An idea I had about the bastard sword

[Galethorn]

I've always liked the bastard sword, but it's pretty much useless as anything other than a replacement longsword to go with a shield.
I always felt that the point of a bastard sword was to have a sword that was light enough to use effectively one-handed, and on par with the great sword because you could swing it so fast when you use it two-handed.
How would you represent a fast two-handed weapon? I have a few ideas...

1.) Bonus to attack. It makes sense when you think about it...You swing in faster through the air, so your opponent can't dodge/parry it as well, and it penetrates armor more reliably. The only problem with this that I have is how to implement it's mechanics...Maybe let the person wielding the bastard sword two-handed turn their extra .5x damage into a bonus to attack, up to some maximum bonus, like +5. It could be a feat, which would work on bastard swords and dwarven waraxes.

2.) Bonus to crit. range. It sort of makes sense that you could more easily cut through armor with the strength of both hands, but that's covered by the +.5x damage from using the weapon with both hands.

3.) Bonus to crit. multiplier. Same as above...

Another reason behind this is the fact that a longsword is only very slightly worse than a bastard sword, statistically, and it doesn't cost a feat to use. Anyway, here's the resulting feat from solution one:

Hand and a Half Weapon Training [General]

You are specially trained in the use of the Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe.

Prerequisites: Str 13+, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword / Dwarven Waraxe),
Base Attack Bonus +1

Benefit: You are can apply the extra damage from using a weapon two handed to your
attack instead. Thus, a first level fighter with 14 strength, with this feat, and using a bastard sword, would
have an attack of +2 with the bastard sword, and would do 1d10+2
damage on a normal hit. This also grants the ability to wield either weapon one-handed,
but armor check penalty from any shield in your off-hand applies to its attack.


This feat isn't supposed to replace EWP (Bastard Sword/Dwarven Waraxe), In case you were wondering. EWP would be much better to take if you wanted to use either weapon with a shield. It also assumes that MWP bastard sword/dwarven waraxe is a 'real' proficiency that comes with normal MWP.

Anyway, I'm wondering if this would be overpowered (which wouldn't supprise me.)


*(Any spelling errors are due to the fact that I had to rush this post, rather than me being bad at spelling.)*

 

[Technik4]

I also miss the bastard sword's days of glory. 3rd Ed's "longsword-fits-all" philosophy is sound from a mechanical point of view, but I think some weapons (ok, a lot of weapons) got left on the side of the road. Its mostly that the greatsword is "so" good that the bastard sword isnt too effective 2-h. If you compare it to a greataxe, it doesnt seem so bad (1 die lower, avg dmg -1).

I think your feat is fine, but I doubt it will bring many people back to the bastard sword. Ive always tried to work out a style that relies on using the sword 2-h some rounds, but switching to 1-h occasionally, frankly I dont know if that makes any sense in game or real life terms.

Yeah, I miss short swords as well (by and large replaced by the rapier), and for that matter I miss all of the old blugeoning weapons (whose damage dice dont add up to their slashing cousins).

I guess the really sad thing is, most parties are made up of those 3 weapons: rapier (rogue/bard), longsword (1-h and shield), and greatsword (2-h). You see some axes now and then, but it really just strikes me as odd when someone doesnt use one of those 3 weapons in 3ed. Personally I try to avoid using them, and my most frequent weapon is ... a dagger, a weapon that always manages to come in handy, for any class

Sorry this wasnt more helpful, but I definitely feel your sentiment.

Technik

 

[Judas]

Bastard Sword use, one-handed: Requires Exotic Weapon Feat
Bastard Sword use, two-handed: Requires Martial Weapon Feat

I don't know if that's a house rule or a standard rule, but that's the one my group goes by.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I guess the really sad thing is, most parties are made up of those 3 weapons: rapier (rogue/bard), longsword (1-h and shield), and greatsword (2-h). You see some axes now and then, but it really just strikes me as odd when someone doesnt use one of those 3 weapons in 3ed. Personally I try to avoid using them, and my most frequent weapon is ... a dagger, a weapon that always manages to come in handy, for any class

I think that a Battle Axe is technically superior to a Long Sword, excepting Vorpal versions of both.

(They're functionally identical except that the Battle Axe has a 20/x3 crit instead of the 19-20/x2, and that means that you're less likely to "waste" part of your crit range with a Battle Axe. Average damage is the same.)

(Of course, you could argue that you're more likely to "waste" overflow damage with the Battle Axe, but you're also more likely to take someone down in fewer hits, denying them a chance to whack you again, so that may come out a wash)

So, while I agree with you that you always see the long sword, that doesn't seem to be a purely mechanically informed decision.

 

[plavi]

By the rules...

... as far as I can remember them:
Example: fighter with STR 14

Bastard sword 2 handed (martial prof): 1d10 + 3
Bastard sword 1 handed (exotic prof): 1d10 + 2

Case one: slightly more damage
Case two: can use shield but costs a feat

Then it's better to go for weapon focus (longsword) with your spare feat, for you should always prefer a bonus to hit over a bonus on damage.

However, if you are not proficient in longsword and/or greatsword (ie rogues) then bastard sword is an exellent choice.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Staffan]

Re: By the rules...

Then it's better to go for weapon focus (longsword) with your spare feat, for you should always prefer a bonus to hit over a bonus on damage.

On the other hand, if you have lots of feats (i.e. you're a fighter) you might as well spend one of them on the bastard sword. If you're short on feats, they probably do more good elsewhere.

 

[plavi]

Yup

More

There is always a certain priorisation about your choice of feats etcetera:
1 - more attacks
2 - more attack bonus
3 - and lastly to go for damage

Were I to have 2 feats left, I would choose the following, in order of importance (and befitting your character, meeting requirements, etcetera):
1 - ambidex and two weapon fighting
2 - weapon focus(longsword) and weapon specialisation(longsword)
3 - martial proficiency(bastard sword) and weapon focus(bastard sword)

Etc...

Luck with your choices

 

[Spatzimaus]

The way the weapon proficiency system is designed, the only people I ever see take exotic weapons are Fighters (okay, and Psychic Warriors too), simply because of all their Feats. To anyone else, it's not worth giving up things like Power Attack just to gain 1 damage AND have to switch to a new weapon type. Once you've taked Weapon Focus and Specialization in Longsword, you won't want to switch to a Bastard Sword.

(Exception: Sun Blade)

The Bastard Sword by itself isn't a bad weapon. Without the EWP, it's a slightly weakened Greatsword that weighs less (and unless your STR is over 15 or so, the weight of a Greatsword IS significant, especially for the high-DEX people who can't afford encumbrance). With the EWP, it's an improved Longsword.

You're right, though, in that if you're willing to spend a Feat, just get Weapon Focus (longsword). But, that's not a problem with a Bastard Sword, it's a problem with the EWP system. Too little gain per Feat.

********************
HOUSE RULE

IMC, we sorted the Exotic weapons into Groups. All of these weapons can now be used as Martial weapons (or, in a couple cases, as Simple weapons), but anyone possessing the appropriate EWP gains an extra benefit.

For example, the Heavy Weapon group (Bastard Sword, Dwarven Waraxe, Elvish Thinblade, Katana*, Wakizashi*, Fullblade, Khopesh*) EWP lets you use the weapon as if it were one size smaller. So, one Feat lets you do this for ALL of these weapons, not just one.

Other groups: Double Weapon (including Quarterstaves), Flowing Weapon (mercurials), Exotic Ranged (hand crossbow, shuriken, etc.), Entangling Weapon (net, whip), Fine Weapon (Katana*, Kukri, Wakizashi*, Daikatana*, Naginata*), Monk Weapon (Siangham, Nunchaku, Kama- Monks get this EWP for free)

So, each of these weapons can be used by someone lacking the EWP without a -4 nonproficiency penalty (except the Flowing group, it's a special case), they just don't get the benefit the EWP would give.

*- I've changed the stats of these weapons from how they appear in the books. Note that the Katana and Wakizashi are in two EWP groups; if you want full use out of these weapons, you need both Feats. Without those Feats they're slightly worse than the mundane equivalents, with them they're slightly better.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Re: Yup

More

There is always a certain priorisation about your choice of feats etcetera:
1 - more attacks
2 - more attack bonus
3 - and lastly to go for damage

Were I to have 2 feats left, I would choose the following, in order of importance (and befitting your character, meeting requirements, etcetera):
1 - ambidex and two weapon fighting
2 - weapon focus(longsword) and weapon specialisation(longsword)
3 - martial proficiency(bastard sword) and weapon focus(bastard sword)

I think in your last sentence there you meant "exotic proficiency (bastard sword)," not "martial proficiency."

Not to beat a horse which I'm sure is long-past beaten, but I note that Ambidexterity and TWF is not a particularly useful style unless you've got very specific plans. More attacks only equals better if all else is equal, and they aren't. If you're likely to be in a situation with a flat miss chance (like, you're Blinking), then Ambi/TWF is useful. If you're trying to deliver some kind of non-damage status effect with your attacks, then Ambi/TWF is useful. Otherwise, it's pretty much inferior to using a Greatsword.

It's also not particularly true that an attack bonus is better than a damage bonus. Compare a bastard sword to a long sword. The long sword averages 4.5 * .9 + 9 * .1 = 4.95 damage per attack (including crits). The bastard sword averages 5.5 * .9 + 11 * .1 = 6.05 damage per attack (including crits). Say that you've got a +3 Str bonus, so you're doing 7.95 damage vs 9.05. Now, you're trying to decide whether to get EWP Bastard Sword or WF Long Sword.

So, 9.05/7.95 = 113.8%. You're doing 13.8% more damage with the Bastard Sword than with the Long Sword, when you hit. In order for it to be worthwhile to get the Weapon Focus in Long Sword, you need to get an increase in your hit rate of 13.8%, to make up for that damage differential.

That means that, roughly, if you think that your normal scenario is that you hit on a 14 (or higher) or better, it's advantageous to get the Weapon Focus (Longsword). If, on the other hand, you think that your normal scenario is that you hit on a 13 (or lower) or better, it's advantageous to get the EWP (Bastard Sword).

The other thing to consider is what you're doing with your future feats. If you go the longsword route, you'll never get that 1.1 extra points of average damage. If you go the bastard sword route, you can get WF and WS eventually. Of course, if you've plotted out all your future feats and you don't have "room" for the weapon specialization, then the longsword becomes superior.

Anyhow... back to the original question about making Bastard Swords more useful. Maybe this feat?

Hand-and-a-Half Fighting (General, Fighter)
Prerequisites: +4 BAB
When fighting with a weapon that can be used one or two handed, you can swiftly switch between the two styles of attack, catching inexperienced opponents off-guard.
Benefit: If your opponent's BAB is two less than your own or worse, if you use your weapon with a different number of hands than you did last round, you get a surprise bonus of +2 to hit.


EDIT: Grrr. UBB tags. I can never remember 'em.

 

[Technik4]

I think if there were more feats to take that were specific to exotic weapons, and possibly some special enhancements for exotic weapons, it may make them more attractive. So heres a couple off the top of my head:

Foreign Maneuvers [Fighter, General]
You wield an exotic weapon in an ingenious way.
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Any Melee], BAB +2
Benefit: While using an exotic weapon you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC because opponents don't realize all of the openings in your attacks. This bonus is negated by anyone else who has this feat for the same weapon.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once, each time it applies to a new melee exotic weapon.

Foreign Style [Fighter, General]
Your attacks seem to come from the wrong direction, catching foes off balance.
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Any Melee], Weapon Focus [Any Melee], Foreign Maneuvers, BAB +6.
Benefit: Your last attack in a round gets a +2 bonus to hit.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once, each time it applies to a new melee exotic weapon.

Foreign Artist [Fighter, General]
You have mastered the intricacies of your weapon in a way few have.
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Any Melee], Weapon Focus [Any Melee], Foreign Maneuvers, Foreign Style, BAB +11.
Benefit: You gain a +2 initiative bonus, and your dodge bonus from Foreign Maneuvers is raised to +2 and is no longer negated unless your opponent has Foreign Artist with the same weapon.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once, each time it applies to a new melee exotic weapon.

Also, to quickly respond to Mike Sullivan's feat, I think that the BAB checking mechanic is too unwieldy. Checking hit dice or even a sense motive roll with a DC of 18 seems like a better route. Does the +2 apply to all attacks in the round or just the first? Neat idea, btw.


Technik