An idea on limiting high level spell casting

[Telsar]

I'm going to be starting a new DnD 3.5 game with my face-to-face group sometime in the near future, and I'm trying to work on a HR that will limit high level spells.

Once games get into high levels, I start to lose interest because high-level spells dominate the combat. It all comes down to which side gets off their high-powered stuff first. One side devastates the others with empowered fireballs, or one side just teleports away when things get rough, sometimes immediately.

So I had an idea that I'd like advice on: limiting the casting of spells by what round of combat your in. During the first round, only 1st level spells could be used. Fireballs couldn't be introduced till round 3 (3rd level spell), and no one could Teleport away before round 5 (5th level).

I think I'd really like how this would change the dynamics of spell combat. The early rounds start off with the simplest effects, with more powerful and complex effects having to be delayed. I think it would simulate fiction better, where adversaries test out their foes with low level stuff before bringing in the heavy guns.

But... what would be the justification for it? Perhaps casters have to summon up the mental resources before using their high-level spells. But then you have to worry about ambushes; if one side can "power up", so to speak, just while sneakily watching their foes, then when the battle begins, the attackers have access to the high level stuff, while the defenders are stuck with low spells in the beginning. I don't like that. But I can't think of a reason why they couldn't do it that would make sense.

There's also the question of magic items; do you have to delay before you can use a wand of fireballs? If not, wands will get a lot more use. What about spell-like abilities, should they be limited by their level?

Any thoughts on how to make my idea work will be appreciated. Thoughts on other/better ways to nerf high-level casting will be appreciated too.

 

[mirivor]

My group is confronting the same problem.

I am averse to your idea simply because it is hard to justify it.

You may want to consider banning spells of a certain level and above. Say seventh and up, which is what we selected. However, leave the slots of those spells open for metamagic. This has several positive effects:

- casters no longer get completely hosed by multiclassing. Wizards can now pick up a level or two of something else without dropping their powercurve into the drink.

- High-level combat is no longer dominated.

- The most egregious spells are gone from the game, IE Timestop, Imprisonment, etc.


We are happy with the decision, although I had to put a lot of thought into how this impacted the setting and make the appropriate changes.

 

[TheNovaLord]

start at 1st level and progress no quicker than 1 level every 4 sessions. Keep the whole power level down not just spells or it gets unbalanced (non spell users can do complex n high damage things too!)

JohnD

Our camapigns always end at about 10th due top burn out / n the prospect of constsnat save or die situations, so i don know how u feel.

 

[smootrk]

You could make multiclassing a requirement of your campaign. If someone want to be a primarily Wizard type, that is fine but for every 2 or 3 levels of wizard (or PRC that grants full progression) then the character must take a level of something else... a ratio of 2:1 or 3:1.

Using a ratio such as this will automatically slow their individual progress down so that you (DM) can adapt to the rapid advancement of this version of D&D (which I dislike as well). The ratio will also remove much of the top end problems, because a wizard who is tenth level will be effectively a 15th level character before reaching this (with the 2:1 ratio).

You will need to be prepared for some interesting character types, and you may need to allow some exta base classes to help the players have choices. You may need to make the ruling affect warriors with their BAB - they must take a less than full BAB class for multiclassing. Rogues with skill points (take a class with 4 or less skill points per level). Clerics would be just like wizards. You would also likely need to relax the multiclassing XP penalty and favored racial class rules to do this technique.

Anyway... just an idea that could probably help your particular situation, and might even make your campaign a bit more interesting at the same time.

 

[Ilium]

Mirivor's idea is very interesting. I don't know how many people would continue as pure spellcasters just to get metamagic-enabled slots, but I suppose some would.

But I think the OP's idea is workable. To limit the "ambush problem" you can say that a caster can only cast a spell one level higher than the spell he cast the previous round. That way you can't just sit there for 10 minutes concentrating to maintain your focus. It means that the ambushing party would still get a 1 or 2 level jump on their opponents, but that seems like a reasonable advantage for a successful ambush.

Wands, potions and other magic items would definitely become more valuable in such a system, though. If you want to limit this, you could require that the item be "warmed up" for a number of rounds equal to its spell level -1. Warming up a wand would take a move action each round (or a free action maybe). Potions simply take their level in rounds to start working after you drink them. Stuff like that. Of course wands and potions don't hold the real game-breakers anyway.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Discussion of "feat per level" options in General made me think of this - limit spells above 6th level by requiring you to take a feat to learn one (but the extra feats you'd get would make that less onerous), but you could use metamagic to boost up your 6th level and under spells (and the extra feats would give you more flexibility in that case).

An 18th level wizard would have 13 more feats to metamagic stuff, 6 of which could have been used to pick up new, higher level spells.

Add some special things like artifact spells from Secrets of Xendrik (IIRC) and other story-based ways to get the really high level spells, and you might be on to something.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I like your idea Telsar but see no justification for it in real combat, but I will use it as rule for wizard duels in the future.

Either make spell casting classes that don't get high level spells (meaning they'll be more powerful in other areas) or get rid of/power down problematic spells.

For instance increase teleport and heal's casting time to 2 round and have instant death spells only drop people to 1 hit point away from dying (still very lethal if you don't get stabilized or if you get hit by a quicikened magic missle).

I've never tested out the former (my group didn't like it) but the latter worked out pretty well, oh yeah even though you probably won't play high enough to get ninth level spells if you do ban time stop.

 

[smootrk]

Similar to Aus Diamondew said, you can modify spells to include extra rare or expensive components. Teleport now needs to include diamond dust tossed into the air around the characters to be teleported and also requires everyone to stand in a circle with hands held for 2 full rounds - that will essentially remove the battlefield use of the spell.

Using a similar process for each of your troublesome spells will be tedius, but may have the benefit off adding to the campaign flavor. A rule of thumb for additional costs may be 25gp/spell level, but this will likely be deducted from overal party wealth as an adventuring expense burdened by the whole party.

Overall, I believe you are on the slow end of 'arms race' if you use this method. They will just find another spell to baffle you.

 

[Quartz]

Why don't you simply identify which spells are the problem and ban them? Problems with buffing? Ban the buffs! Problems with Teleport? The spell doesn't exist!

 

[Cheiromancer]

One of the design assumptions of D20 is that characters double in power every two levels. That's hard to manage; the improvement of hit points, AC, attack and damage more naturally falls into a quadratic progression. But one way the designers help to steepen the power curve is to ramp up the power of high level spells. Similar remarks apply to monsters; high level monsters often have abilities that are devastating to low level parties (a balor's blasphemy ability, say.)

If you want to slow down the power curve again, slow the progression of high level magic. After 5th level spells are obtained at 9th level, require 3 levels to acquire a new spell. 6th level at 12th, 7th level at 15, 8th level at 18; characters have to be 21st level to learn 9th level spells. You can do this by applying a special rule to primary spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, druids, clerics, etc): At level 11, 14, 17 and 20 they get a feat and +1 caster level instead of new spells/day. You should also change how you use high level monsters: instead of using a CR 20 monster, take a CR 16 monster with extra hit dice. Or two CR 16 monsters.

The result of all this should be a noticeable difference in play that shifts the emphasis back towards the fighters and rogue types, and away from the spellcasters. They'll still be able to teleport and cast empowered fireballs, but not as often, and they should be stingier with their magic.

You don't want to nerf them too much, or the players will resent it. But extending the casting time of a few spells to one full round makes a big difference; they become a lot easier for opponents to disrupt, since a readied action is not required.