An odd idea...

[Bob Aberton]

Well, it seems like I got a good response...hmm...let me see.

If I changed armor to DR
I changed Weapon Focus to Skill Focus: Attack(whatever)
I changed Weapon Specialization to Greater Skill Focus: Attack(whatever)
I got a new feat called Superior Skill Focus: Attack(whatever).

1) no BAB beyond +5 w/out Skill Focus: Attack(___)
2) no BAB beyond +10 w/out Greater Skill Focus: Attack(___)
3) no BAB beyond +15 w/out Superior Skill Focus: Attack(___)
4)I made it opposed skill checks (Attack(___) vs. Defense skill modifed by ranks, DEX, and any other dodge bonuses to AC)

Can ayone think of other major things I would have to change to make this work?


I'm already working on it. With luck, maybe I'll have it finished and posted in a few weeks.

Continuing feedback appreciated.

 

[Maerdwyn]

As mutiple attacks get harder, do you think it should get harder to defend against successive attacks, with a similar penalty imposed on all defense checks beyond the first.

A series of defensive feats could be available mitigate this

 

[Bob Aberton]

Yeah, you're right, Maerdwyn. How about this: for every attack more that an opponent has, it imposes a cumulative -2 penalty, representing that the opponent's attacks are really fast and hard to block/dodge. So, for example, poor Joe the 1st level fighter is up against Bob the 10 th level swordmaster.
Joe has 1 attack,
and Bob has 2 attacks.
So, Joe makes his first defensive check as usual, and then, -2 on his second defensive check. A character can take the following feat to avoid this:

Superior Defense
Prereq: Dex 13+, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: You ignore penalties for succesasive defensive checks when your opponent has more attacks per round than you.

Anyway, I had an idea that would make the fighters the top dogs of combat. While all other classes have to spend their own precious skill points on combat skills, fighters get extra skill points equal to their INT mod to spend on combat skills, in addition to their regular 2+INT mod amount of skill points per level.

Oh and by the way: would changing BAB from a HD based thing to a Skill based thing change the CR system in any significant way?

 

[Maerdwyn]

Yeah, you're right, Maerdwyn. How about this: for every attack more that an opponent has, it imposes a cumulative -2 penalty, representing that the opponent's attacks are really fast and hard to block/dodge. So, for example, poor Joe the 1st level fighter is up against Bob the 10 th level swordmaster.
Joe has 1 attack,
and Bob has 2 attacks.
So, Joe makes his first defensive check as usual, and then, -2 on his second defensive check. A character can take the following feat to avoid this:

Superior Defense
Prereq: Dex 13+, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: You ignore penalties for succesasive defensive checks when your opponent has more attacks per round than you.

I was also thinking of attacks from multiple opponents, such as when I surround PCs with small hordes of kobolds (my humaoid of choice)

Anyway, I had an idea that would make the fighters the top dogs of combat. While all other classes have to spend their own precious skill points on combat skills, fighters get extra skill points equal to their INT mod to spend on combat skills, in addition to their regular 2+INT mod amount of skill points per level.

Oh and by the way: would changing BAB from a HD based thing to a Skill based thing change the CR system in any significant way?

If the system is significantly more deadly (run some mock battles to find out), CRs may need to go up a bit in order to maintina the proper "resources used:xp earned" ratio that CRs are supposed to represent.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Re: You're right!

All in all, it would require a whole lot of messing with stuff, with all the tweaking of rules and classes. But if you ever do it, post a copy.

That's precisely why I haven't messed with the idea to any great extent yet...

Though, feasibly, this system could pave the way to a "classless" D20 version.

 

[Bob Aberton]

Ok, here's what I've done so far:

Skills

Attack(Swords)
(Axes)
(Blunt weapons)
(Polearms)
(Flails*)
(Piercing weapons)
(Picks)
(Sickles&Scythes)
(Longbow)
(Shortbow)
(Crossbow)
etc.
You are skilled in attacking with any weapon you take this skill in. If you wish to attack, make an attack skill check opposed against the opponents defense check. If you win, you can damage your opponent. Skill Mod= STR(or DEX for ranged weapons)+Ranks+Misc mod.

Untrained: Yes
Retry: Yes, but only if you can make another attack in the same round. Otherwise, you have to wait until the next round.


Defense(Dodge)
(Parry)

You are skilled at either parrying or dodging an opponent's blows. Every time an opponent attempts to damage you, you make a Defense check opposed to their Attack check. If you win, you have either parried or dodged the blow. For every attack more that your opponent has, you suffer a cumulative -2 penalty to subsequent defense checks*. Skill mod.=DEX(Or WIS, for Parry) score+ranks+misc. mod.
If the chracter is wearing "Plate Armors", such as breastplate, full plate, half plate, or field plate, then add 1/2(round down) of the AC bonus to a Parry (and ONLY a Paryy) roll. A character can either make a Parry OR a Dodge roll against any given attack.

Untrained: Yes
Retry: no

These skills are class skills for the Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger. They are cross-class skills for all other classes.
Additionally, Fighters get extra skill points per level equal to their INT mod that can ONLY BE PUT INTO "ATTACK" OR "DEFENSE." This is in addition to their regular skill point allotment per level.

Feats:

Skill Focus: Attack(____)
Prereq: none
Benefit: Without this feat, your Attack Skill Mod could not exceed +5.

Greater Skill Focus: Attack(____)
Prereq: Skill Focus: Atack(____)
Benefit: Without this feat, your Attack Skill Mod could not exceed +10.

Superior Skill Focus: Attack(____)
Prereq: Geater Skill Focus: Attack(___), Skill Focus: Attack(__)
Benefit: Without this feat, your Attack Skill Mod could not exceed +15.

Superior Defense
Prereq: DEX 13+, Skill Focus: Attack(___)
Benefit: You do not suffer the -2 penalty if your opponent has ONLY ONE more attack than you*.

Improved Defense
Prereq: DEX 13+, Skill Focus: Attack(___), Superior Defense
Benefit: You do not suffer the -2 penalty if your opponent has ONLY TWO more attacks than you*.

*for multiple opponents, count them as one creature with the total # of attacks of all the multiple creatures combined. So, count 8 kobolds with 1 attack each as 1 kobold with 8 attacks.

To work properly with this system, armor must be changed to DR (However, I feel that "Plate" Armors;Half Plate, Full PLate, and Field Plate, and Breastplate should also get some deflection ability as well as reducing damage taken).


This is still a work in progress, but what do you think of it? This system works well with my Skill XP system.

 

[JDRay]

Classless Character System

There have been a few mentions of "the classless character system" in this thread. Are you all referring to Red Leaf Games d(Liberation)20 System?

In that system (which is by no means perfect), there's a two-tier system for weapon groups. The tiers look something like this:

Choppers

• Light Axes
  Heavy Axes
  Picks

Smashers

• Clubs
  Maces
  Flails
  Hammers

Blades

• Daggers & Knives
  Light Swords
  Heavy Swords

Poles

• Lances
  Spikes
  Spears

Projectiles

• Bows
  Crossbows

Ballistics

• Archaic Firearms
  Modern Pistols
  Modern Rifles
  Futuristic Firearms

There are also a few "unrelated subgroups" such as Chains & Ropes, Sickles, etc. that don't seem to fit elsewhere.

Within this system, a character can take a feat to be proficient with weapons in one subgroup. This adds a skill to his list of, for instance, Proficiency (Lances). The character can also take Proficiency(Light Swords) for the cost of another feat, or, if they're interested in more pokey things, another feat will get them Proficiency(Poles). This last feat has a prereq. of a proficiency in at least one subgroup.

It should be noted that characters in this system start with lots of feats, but no "extras," so they have to buy just about everything.

At first glance, this method seems complicated. On the other hand, it gets past the question of, "How is it that I can use a bastard sword with great skill but have no clue how to use a longsword?" I'm not sure that I like the idea of adding a bunch of feats just to make things cost feats, but I'm not sure how else to handle it.

Any thoughts?

 

[Bob Aberton]

synergy bonuses maybe for related weapons?
So, if I had Attack(longsword), I would get a synergy bonus to Attack(bastard sword).

Also, the "plate Armors" add half their current AC value to a Defense(Parry) roll, but not a Defense(Dodge) roll.

edit: Defense(Parry) is modified by Wisdom, not DEX.

Yes, I've heard of the classless D20 systems, but I'm not going for classless here, just more flexibility within classes.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Take "10" on Defense Rolls

I would also suggest that for defense rolls, the defender is assumed to be taking "10". That will reduce the number of rolls to resolve a combat. Only for dramatic duels would you actually have the defender roll the d20.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Re: Take "10" on Defense Rolls

I would also suggest that for defense rolls, the defender is assumed to be taking "10". That will reduce the number of rolls to resolve a combat. Only for dramatic duels would you actually have the defender roll the d20.

Well... that's pretty much D&D now, isn't it?

Besides, combat is a rather stressful situation, in which you shouldn't be able to Take 10.

I'd agree with the synergy bonuses. You could also have a synergy bonus between dodge and parry.

Speaking of which, I'd make Parry a Str skill, and make certain you stipulate that it is unusable against ranged attacks unless a shield is being used to parry. The idea is that at it's very basic, a parry is blocking a weapon with a weapon (or shield), pitting the defender's strength against the attacker's. If the defender is stronger, he bats away the attack. If the attacker is stronger, he batters through the defense. Training (adding skill ranks), will teach the defender parrying tricks that don't require brute strength to withstand a blow.

So, Melee Attack = Str and Parry = Str.
Ranged Attack = Dex and Dodge = Dex.

Dodge works against all attacks, but Parry only works against melee, unless you use a shield to parry.