Pathfinder 1E An ogre's punch

[Wycen]

So, I've been doing a lot of game rules checking lately and my latest question is this.

I've looked at the stat blocks for ogres and it seems they prefer to use weapons. But what if they were forced to smack some PC's around with their bare hands?

Due to being Large, I'm going to guess the typical medium size damage of d3 would be upgraded to d4. Which seems weak, but they get to add their STR mod. And it isn't considered a natural attack so would provoke an AoO, except they have 10 reach so I guess that is an interesting trade off.

Other than simply deciding an ogre is better at using his hands, is there something someone can point to which might indicate 1d6 damage or anything else I'm missing?

Thanks

 

[Belzbet]

I checked out the ogre and it seems that it would be DM house rule to either increase the hand to hand damage of the ogre or give it a natural attack. As is it seems the ogre would deal 1d4 in nonlethal damage with its fist (no natural attack is listed). However, most giants do get a natural attack so maybe that was just an oversight when writing the ogre. I would give it either 2 claws or a slam attack. This would deal lethal damage and claw attacks for large creatures do 1d6+STR a frost giant has a slam attack that does 1d4+1.5STR.... I should note I didnt look in the pathfinder MM though so the rules here may differ than 3.5.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Either unarmed or slam.

I figure most ogres aren't that good at unarmed combat, and those that are would have taken barbarian levels and something like the Improved Unarmed Strike feat (you could call it "Slamming").

 

[RangerWickett]

Unarmed attacks provoke opportunity attacks because if you swing your fist at me, and I have a sword, it's very easy for me to just put my sword in the path of your swing and cut you. If you swing a sword, well, I just knicked your sword, not your hand.

So even if the ogre has reach, he should provoke OAs for punching.

 

[delericho]

I've looked at the stat blocks for ogres and it seems they prefer to use weapons. But what if they were forced to smack some PC's around with their bare hands?

Then, by the book, they're just the same as everyone else - 1d4+Str mod non-lethal damage, and it provokes an attack of opportunity. Although, because the Ogre has reach, this last may not be an issue.

If you want the ogre to be more powerful, you should maybe consider the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a level of Monk, or something similar. Or simply assign him a slam attack.

Unarmed attacks provoke opportunity attacks because if you swing your fist at me, and I have a sword, it's very easy for me to just put my sword in the path of your swing and cut you. If you swing a sword, well, I just knicked your sword, not your hand.

So even if the ogre has reach, he should provoke OAs for punching.

Logically, this is correct. By the book, though...

(Funnily enough, I had exactly the same conversation with a player of mine some years ago, when he wanted to Ready an attack to strike back when a dragon was going to attack him with Reach. Given his previous track record of rules-lawyering, I took some pleasure in denying his request.)

 

[Cleon]

Just equip them a Spiked Gauntlet to give them 1d6 damage and avoid the AoO issue.

It also means they do lethal damage rather than nonlethal, which is another problem with Unarmed Strike.

Spiked gauntlets are simple weapons, so the Ogre will be proficient in them.

 

[frankthedm]

Ogres in the 1E had a 1d10 natural attack, with the hit probability based only on their HD. If they instead wielded a weapon, they got a bonus to hit and bonus to damage. Back in 1E, getting that boost was pretty noteworthy for a monster.

So even if the ogre has reach, he should provoke OAs for punching.

The ogre provokes, but those without the reach to get to the ogre's space can't take the AoO on the ogre's limb.

Hell, in PF IIRC you can't even READY a counterattack for a reaching limb without a mid level heroic feat.

 

[RangerWickett]

That doesn't make sense to me. If your fist is within the length of my arm + the length of my weapon -- which it definitely is if you're going to make contact and harm me -- then I can hit your fist.

Rules as written here aren't realistic. And haven't you ever seen a scene in some movie or cartoon where a big monster reaches for a little guy, who pokes it in the palm with his dagger?

 

[Wycen]

I get your drift Ranger. And thanks for all the replies, some of them came to my mind as well (spiked gauntlet for example).

For my purposes, anything that can be argued is going to cause more problems. Our game is at a crossroads and it is because of things like "she's a half-orc so she does more damage" that have me asking these questions.

 

[Cleon]

Just equip them a Spiked Gauntlet to give them 1d6 damage and avoid the AoO issue.

Dangit, where did the "with" disappear to in that sentence. Oh well, I was in a hurry.

 

[Epametheus]

Frank, the feat you're thinking of is to allow a person to counter-attack an enemy with reach that would not normally provoke an AoO. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/strike-back-combat---final So if the dragon was biting you from 30 feet away, you could still stab it.

I'd probably allow an AoO against an ogre trying to slap someone who's 10 ft away - the ogre isn't competent enough at unarmed combat to actually get a slam attack. I'd consider that an extension of the ogre's deformities and idiocy.

 

[frankthedm]

Frank, the feat you're thinking of is to allow a person to counter-attack an enemy with reach that would not normally provoke an AoO. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/strike-back-combat---final So if the dragon was biting you from 30 feet away, you could still stab it.

By taking a standard action to Ready the said attack and hoping the dragon chooses to melee attack you. It is a very limited feat that sounds a LOT better in its description...

You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.

...but is sub par when you get to what the feat actually does.

Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.

That is NO Base attack bonus +11 feat IMNSHO!