D&D 4E An Olive Branch to 4e Fans: Some Things 5e Should Take From 4e

Disagree. I don't think "Detect Evil" should really be detecting people who cheat their customers, beat their wives, oppress the peasants, or whatever. That leads to all sorts of stupidity in the game - and incidentally has no legendary or fictional basis whatever.

I think it should be something more like, "Detect Supernatural Taint of Evil". Or "Detect EVILLE!" if you prefer. Demons? They show up. Devils? Yep. Clerics of gods committed to evilness? Yep. (Though not clerics of gods who just happen to be jerks. Gods don't have to be aligned any more than anyone else - though I grant that it's more common for them.)

A mortal demon-cultist who practices human sacrifice? Yep. The guy who cheats on his taxes? Nope. Or even the guy who murdered somebody, if there's no EVILLE! involvement? Nope.

Going back to 1E days, we never played a paladin's detect evil as some sort of Super-Secret Stealth Radar of Evil Detection. If a paladin wanted to detect evil in a certain location, he or she would get out their holy symbol and announce something to the effect of:

"By the Holy & Blessed Tyr, I call thy power to detect those souls of evil who needs be brought before thy justice!"

That doesn't really go over too well in the crowded cantinas of Mos Eisley...
 

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I would agree, detect abilities are overpowered and difficult.

Detect evil should be on the creature or even the place, "I detect evil" shouldn't ruin every mystery, nor should it give away a character's alignment, it should give away creatures or places that emanate evil.

I even have issues with detect magic. Why is it not line of sight? Why can it go through 3' of stone??? That's pretty nuts imo.
 

- Combat Advantage: A simple +2 bonus for having combat advantage is easy and simple to keep track of compared of the myriad situational modifiers you could get in previous editions (flanking, prone, flat-footed, higher ground, etc etc etc). It's also easy for things like a rogue's sneak attack. Have combat advantage - can sneak attack.
It did simplify things, so it was a plus.

- No Rolling to "Confirm" Criticial Hits. Always hated that.
one extra roll to confirm wasn't that big a deal to me, though auto-max damage was nice.

- Being able to save against a "save or suck" effect every turn in combat. 3.5 started this with hold person, 4e applied to all such effects. I didn't like the "coin toss" saving throws, but it's still a good idea. Nothing is worse than being nauseated, paralyzed, dazed, or whatever else and being unable to do anything for the entire battle.
That was good from a player perspective, but sometimes those "save or suck" or "save or die" spells would throw the fear of the gods into the players.

- Standard, Move and Minor Actions: I liked this. No full-round actions. It's simple and straightforward while giving players enough flexibility to do the kinds of things they need to do.
agreed - this was a step up from 3E/3.5E. I do think there should be a limit to free actions as well, though.

- No "iterative" attacks. I hated that about 3rd edition. Likewise, monsters only tend to make 1 or 2 attacks also, not claw, claw, bite, wing, wing, tail slap, rake, rend, etc.
it gave the melee classes a bonus in previous editions to allow them to be closer in power to the spellcasters. However, with better balancing between classes, this was not needed. So, a net plus.

- AC that scales with attack bonus. I always thought it was ridiculous that characters got way, way better at attacking people, but not better at defending themselves without loading up on magic items.
pretty good idea, agreed.

- No Rolling for Stats or Hit Points.
disagree - loved rolling for stats and hit points. I hope it's a legit option in 5E, instead of getting "your character is not valid by the rules" or whatever you get in 4E DDI if you input stats yourself.

- At-Will Spells and Cantrips. It makes vancian casting much more bearable. I hope my wizard doesn't sit there twiddling his thumbs or pointlessly plinking things with a crossbow during all those rounds of combat where he wants to do something, but doesn't want to waste a good prepared spell. Likewise, cantrips, as the simplest of magic, should be able to be used at-will. Pathfinder likewise saw the value in that.
agreed - this helped get rid of the 15 minute adventuring day, which was the biggest plus of 4E to me.

- Implements: I liked that wands, staffs, etc improved a caster's spells in much the same way that magical weapons improve attacks. It makes much more sense for me for a wand or staff to serve as a focus for a wizard's powers than a spell battery.
good point - I like this idea.

- Spells that required Actions to "Sustain." This is a simple and effective way of balancing alot of the more "overpowered" spells, like fly, and preventing players from stacking too many buffs.
too many buffs made 3.5E spellcasters in my games primarily into buffing and debuffing specialists.

- Alignment is just fluff. No class alignment restrictions. No alignment-based magic. No detect evil. No smite evil. Alignment is there as a way of describing your character's morality, nothing more. There's probably alot of people that disagree with me, but I loved that about 4e.
I think the old 9 alignment system should be available to those who want it. I liked it and I think it helps define PCs, NPCs and intelligent monsters.

- Simple, Easy to Read and Use Monster Stat-blocks. This makes the DM's life sooooo much easier.
+1 on this. I spent about 1/20th the time I spent building encounters as I did in 3.5E.

- No Level Drain. Good riddance!

Yes, level drain was often more depressing than PC death in 1E/2E. So, I don't really miss it.
 

Skilled Longbowmen (most skilled archers in middle age) can shoot once per round. Any single archer worth his salt can shoot twice that from level 1 (rapid shot).

That's a problem with that specific feat, not with the iterative attack system. I wouldn't mind if rapid shot doesn't make it into the new edition. That feat's a bit overpowered and a little unrealistic, but people like it; it's one of the concessions to gamism that I can live with.

In any case, the larger point is that more skilled fighters can attack more often, and not just hit harder. If we make a round 10 seconds instead of 6, then it's quite realistic that a skilled archer can shoot twice while a less skilled one would shoot once.

Against an inmobile target, sure. Against a real oponent who is also attacking you, by no means. An average fencing combat in Olympics last for a few minutes and they score 5 points max. And those are about the fastest guys in the world using one of the fastest moving swords. Same goes with Kendo.

That has more to do with parrying and with getting an AC bonus for having more skill, which I already called for.

Again, it depends of what internal consistency do you want to achieve. To simulate real men fighting each other, 1 or 2 attacks per round is realistic. If you want to simulate, say, Dragon Ball Z or Naruto, that's a different thing. Both are legitimate.

I agree with the E6 idea that the best real-world fighters are comparable to about 6th level (3.x). So talking about what 20th level fighters could do is not a question of the combat system being unrealistic, but a question of the experience and level system being unrealistic. I do think that a less steep experience slope is a good idea, as is being talked about for 5E.

D&D has to simulate both human and superhuman combat. When a solar goes at it with a pit fiend, human limitations aren't relevant.
 

If you have ever practiced Kendo, or have seen a combat, there is not really that.much parrying. Same goes with fencing (which I haven't practiced, but have seen ). People spend most of the time circling around and watching, waiting for a hole in the defense to exploit. Hollywood-like fencing, with Errol Flyn and the like is diferent, though, which is also a legitimate target to simulate in game. Simulation is not necesarelly real, Marvel Superheroes RPG is not realist, but it is good simulating the genre.

The thing is which genre should DnD simulate. I think (always did, in fact), that heroic-paragon-epic should not be level dependant. If I want to simulate Naruto, or.Diablo 3, the game should be "epic" and "superhero" from level 1. Jncluding rapid-shooting or multi-volley arrows from the archer. On the other hand, I should be able to play a high level reasonable realistic campaing too (Conan the King, for example)
 

Sure. But then, I spend way more time pretending to be an elf than getting in online scuffles about the best possible way to pretend to be an elf, so I probably wouldn't hear the name calling in the first place. :)

Actually, Enworld, especially compared to anywhere else, isn't that bad for any of that. So you'd generally not see it much anyway. That's why I come here.
 

Actually, Enworld, especially compared to anywhere else, isn't that bad for any of that. So you'd generally not see it much anyway. That's why I come here.
I agree.

I also left EnWorld for a time because it got worse than I cared to tolerate. Things seem better now, though, so I'm optimistic.

Thaumaturge.
 

I agree.

I also left EnWorld for a time because it got worse than I cared to tolerate. Things seem better now, though, so I'm optimistic.

Thaumaturge.

I'm not saying I'm completely innocent, but I like that I can criticise (or compliment) any given element of any given system and not have it turn into a pointless brawl. Even when I give my opinion quite heartily.

I must admit I get a bit frustrated when anyone tries to bring back an old mechanic that is clearly awful, not just a different taste to mine, but just plain bad. I just have to keep reminding myself not to get all street fighter about it.
 

- Combat Advantage: A simple +2 bonus for having combat advantage is easy and simple to keep track of compared of the myriad situational modifiers you could get in previous editions (flanking, prone, flat-footed, higher ground, etc etc etc). It's also easy for things like a rogue's sneak attack. Have combat advantage - can sneak attack.

Exact same thing. Most of those factors in previous editions gave a +2. A few really extreme ones gave a +4. The only difference is previous editions gave you a list and 4e said "use your common sense".

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No Rolling to "Confirm" Criticial Hits. Always hated that
.

I never played in a group that had to confirm crits. Everyone seemed to think it was stupid.



- No "iterative" attacks. I hated that about 3rd edition. Likewise, monsters only tend to make 1 or 2 attacks also, not claw, claw, bite, wing, wing, tail slap, rake, rend, etc.
.

Dont agree. Multiple attacks should exist, with the same bonus to all attacks. But they should be a warrior class only feature.

- AC that scales with attack bonus. I always thought it was ridiculous that characters got way, way better at attacking people, but not better at defending themselves without loading up on magic items.
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I agree but they should use Armor as damage reduction to go with it.



At-Will Spells and Cantrips. It makes vancian casting much more bearable. I hope my wizard doesn't sit there twiddling his thumbs or pointlessly plinking things with a crossbow during all those rounds of combat where he wants to do something, but doesn't want to waste a good prepared spell. Likewise, cantrips, as the simplest of magic, should be able to be used at-will. Pathfinder likewise saw the value in that.
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Pathfinder and the original starwars D20 system did that better. 4e took it too far.
 
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However, in order to miss with a natural 20 in 4e, you have to be facing a monster more than ten levels higher than you. That almost never happens, because the combat math of 4e doesn't work well if you're facing monsters more than 5 levels higher or lower than the party.
Um... maybe a level+5 monster that's invisible while you're at an attack penalty?

I think it's more one of those 'rules for theoretical completeness' than actual use.
It became relevant in my game once when the wizard rolled a 20 on an oppy attack with his Tome as an improvised weapon. (It turned out a 20 was just enough, so he got his crit - which we let include the bonus fire damage from his book, although technically I don't think this is what the rules say should happen when using an implement as a melee weapon.)
 

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