An Opportunity for WotC in 2009

[ProfessorCirno]

2e STARTED as a good game, but went downhill as time went on. And it had a lot of time for it to go on. A lot of the 2e hate is based on 1) what it BECAME, and 2) the fact that many of us simply got very burned out on 2e with how long it had been going on for.

 

[Whitemouse]

Sure, it would be neat. However, it is impractical from a business standpoint.

I started on second edition back in 1991. I have many fond memories of playing the game. Second edition was a great game for many reasons, but I think players have the most fond memories of second edition than gms.

 

[Remathilis]

Never once in 10+ years of running 2E did I ever itrodice a player to the game and have him say, "That was really cool, but that whole THAC0 thing is just too hard. I can't play."

You are vastly overstating the difference between the two systems. Your example, in fact, shows that there is a single step of difference: subtraction. Most people who made it past 3rd grade can do it. Itisn't that big a deal.

It wasn't Thac0 in a bubble, but I do know more than a few "interested" parties who were interested in trying the game, but found the mechanics illogical. To hit required adding up a number then subtracting from another number and comparing it to a third. To some, that's too many numbers to track for a single action. Add on the complexity of d20 vs. percentile (open doors vs bend bars) and higher or lower (higher: to hit, saves. Lower: ability checks, thief skills) and you have a recipe for a lot of "What die do I roll again?" which leads to frustration which leads to finding something else to do.

To a hardcore nerd, it wasn't a problem. To a casual player, its an impediment. There are plenty of people who can learn five-card stud, but only dedicated learn Texas Hold'em. Older D&D was Texas Hold'em, later D&D has reached out to Five-Card players.

IMHO, that is a good thing.

 

[MerricB]

I played with a player for about a year where I had to explain THAC0 every single session.

Yes, it was a barrier.

 

[kenwolf]

I played with a player for about a year where I had to explain THAC0 every single session.

Yes, it was a barrier.

i sometimes wonder if people on here make things sound a lot worse then they really are. you played with a person for almost a year and you had to explain it to him every time you played ? was this guy slow in the head or something ? it took me 1 gaming session to get it down. if thac0 was really that bad, why didn't people house rule it so that the to hit was only adding the numbers up like it is now ?

 

[Reynard]

The big black one with the red dragon on the cover, made in 1991 I think.

Well there's your problem: you were born in the 1980s.

 

[Reynard]

Second edition was a great game for many reasons, but I think players have the most fond memories of second edition than gms.

Not in my experience as a 2E DM. It was fast playing, simple, easily modified and just plain full of possibility. I've never enjoyed running 3E the way I enjoyed running 2E. With 3E, I always felt I had to justify certain things in the context of the system, since everything was so integrated. AD&D in general was a collection bolted on sub-systems, so bolting a new one on or unbolting an existing one seemed trivial.

 

[Whitemouse]

Not in my experience as a 2E DM. It was fast playing, simple, easily modified and just plain full of possibility. I've never enjoyed running 3E the way I enjoyed running 2E. With 3E, I always felt I had to justify certain things in the context of the system, since everything was so integrated. AD&D in general was a collection bolted on sub-systems, so bolting a new one on or unbolting an existing one seemed trivial.

Just out of curiousity, how often did you DM? The group I was with back in the 90s got together once a week for a little over three years.

 

[Remathilis]

i sometimes wonder if people on here make things sound a lot worse then they really are. you played with a person for almost a year and you had to explain it to him every time you played ? was this guy slow in the head or something ? it took me 1 gaming session to get it down. if thac0 was really that bad, why didn't people house rule it so that the to hit was only adding the numbers up like it is now ?

1.) Not everyone is either a math-adept or willing to put a lot into learning and mastering the game. These are casual players (spouses, small children, social-friends willing to try, "lurker" players) and (I'm honest) flipping the number from the high "to hit" to the low "AC threshold" number was more than some players are willing to put into the game.

2.) Flipping AC upwards yields a couple funny results. It makes prepublished material (monster manuals, modules, etc) hard to use on the fly, and weirdly caps out at 30 (AC -10).

 

[Staffan]

If someone really needed an attack matrix for THAC0 then they would be better served going back to middle school or something. As far as concepts go THAC0 is pretty simple. It is one of those things that I have only heard people complain about on line.

I didn't have much of a problem with THAC0 in itself, especially not after I made the sheets with adjusted THAC0s. But then again, I've always been pretty good at math (at least until I ran into calculus). My players didn't have any problems with it either.

The problem with 2e (and 1e) was that everything worked differently.

• Attacks: Roll THAC0-d20, the result is the lowest AC you can hit.
• Saves: Roll d20, try to get above target number.
• Initiative: Roll d10 (possibly plus speed factor, depending on what rules you use), lowest goes first.
• Thief skills: Roll d100 below percentile value.
• Non-weapon proficiencies: Roll d20 below stat+modifier.
• Ability checks: Roll d20 below stat.
• Surprise: Roll d10 plus your Dex reaction modifier (aside: having two stats both have a derived value called "reaction modifier" is pretty dumb), on a 3 or less you're surprised.
• Finding secret doors: Roll d6, you find it on a 1 (unless you're an elf).
• Dwarven mining skill: Roll d6, you sense it on 1-3, 1-4, or 1-5 depending on what it is (gnomes have similar abilities, except they sometimes use d10).
• Turn undead: Roll d20 above target number depending on your level and what type of undead.
• Encounter reactions: Roll 2d10 and add the lead character's Cha reaction modifier (which will be negative if they have a good Charisma), with a low roll being better.

There are probably a few other checks around in the game, but I think I've made my point: 2e (and 1e) was a mess, because you never knew how any particular thing was resolved in the rules.