D&D 5E Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design

[DaveDash]

I guess that's the difference between our playstyles then: I don't see "turning gold into power" (Simulacrum, Planar Binding, Animate Dead, enchanting items) as an abuse of wizardly power (except maybe in a moral sense, depending on what you do with it ). I see it as very close to the core of wizardly power: foresight, artifice, and preparation are what wizards are about. The cantrips and fireballs and other evocations are just thinks the wizard does to pass the time until he can level up and learn real magic, but if you have an evil wizard in control of a kingdom, you can absolutely expect him to have dozens or hundreds of fiends at his command in addition to his own personal spellcasting, and Planar Binding (etc.) are how he does it. I'm influenced by fiction such as Jim Butcher's Dresden Files and Fred Saberhagen's Dracula books (in particular the one with Merlin in it, Dominion).

Essentially, I see wizards as straddling the intermediate line between warfare-as-individual-personal-prowess (default D&D/Fighter paradigm, limited by your own personal HP) and technology-driven industrial warfare (limited by the raw materials you have to make bombs/tanks/bullets). Unlike technological warfare, wizards don't get to scale out by building factories to make factories to make factories (personal spellcasting ability is a bottleneck), and also unlike technology they also have some intrinsic power independent of any logistic pipeline (can throw Fireballs using only spell slots, unlike an ultratech general), but they're about halfway there.

RE: Banishment, it doesn't actually break a Planar Binding (so you could just re-summon the Goristro and it would still be bound). Also it works almost just as well on Prime Material creatures (especially wizards, who have terrible Cha saves) so I'm a bit surprised that the enemy spellcasters aren't indiscriminately Banishing PCs as well as fiends, but in any case it still takes ten Banish spells to banish 10,000 gp worth of air elementals, and the elementals (and PCs) can inflict a lot of damage while those Banish spells are being cast. Planar Binding just one elemental is kind of pointless though, like bringing along a pistol with only one bullet in it: why wouldn't you load at least six bullets?

Did I mention yet that none of my PCs are at a level where this would matter for them yet, and that the first 5E wizard in my campaign to (ab)use Planar Binding will probably be an NPC villain? Your Underdark campaign is your own, but if there are wealthy and powerful enemy spellcasters everywhere in your campaign, I personally would be less frightened of Banishment spells cast in person by NPC villains, and more concerned about the possibility that at any time someone could scry me out and then open up a Transport Via Plants in my vicinity and drop forty Air Elementals on my head with orders to kill me[1]. Sure, it costs 40,000 gold pieces to arrange the hit, but we said "wealthy and powerful" enemies, right? Banishment isn't going to help me survive that unless I manage to Banish myself. ;-)

[1] Alternatively, the enemy could travel to another plane and then Gate me into his presence where all the elementals/demons/whatnot are already waiting.

How are you summoning a CR16+ outsider and binding it? Planar Ally? I'm sure there are some caveats around that. Or are you hitting up your 17th level Wizard buddy for a free gate spell?

Contrary to disbelief I'm not nerfing my Wizard player on purpose, he himself has deemed all this rather ineffective and a waste of time and resources, quite simply due to the fact I have used EXACTLY these tactics against the party and they were less than effective.
Multiple elementals? Banished (you can banish multiples at higher levels). Big scary demon via planar ally? Banished, here's your free XP.

Yet somehow when the DM uses the same tactics as the player he is "punishing" his Wizard or "doesn't understand" the spells.

My Wizard player can simulacrum whomever he likes, but he has to go through the process in game, which unless is someone in his own party (pretty ineffective), it's a bit more complicated that working out some potential DPR on paper.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How are you summoning a CR16+ outsider and binding it? Planar Ally? I'm sure there are some caveats around that. Or are you hitting up your 17th level Wizard buddy for a free gate spell?

Goristro wasn't my idea originally--I've been talking more in terms of elementals--but yeah, research the name + Gate spell is the only way I can think of to get a Goristro. Well, maybe Plane Shift would work too (I'm AFB and can't check the conditions on Planar Binding) but I wouldn't try it that way...

Contrary to disbelief I'm not nerfing my Wizard player on purpose, he himself has deemed all this rather ineffective and a waste of time and resources, quite simply due to the fact I have used EXACTLY these tactics against the party and they were less than effective.
Multiple elementals? Banished (you can banish multiples at higher levels). Big scary demon via planar ally? Banished, here's your free XP.

Yet somehow when the DM uses the same tactics as the player he is "punishing" his Wizard or "doesn't understand" the spells.

My Wizard player can simulacrum whomever he likes, but he has to go through the process in game, which unless is someone in his own party (pretty ineffective), it's a bit more complicated that working out some potential DPR on paper.

Wait, when did I ever say using dropping loads of elementals on the PCs was "'punishing' [the] Wizard" or not understanding the spells? In fact I've said the exact opposite: if I were running an Underdark campaign with wealthy, high-level NPCs, they would be sending 40,000 gp worth of bound minions out to kill their enemies (and Banishment won't help against 40 air elementals) any time they can locate those enemies. I've declared my intention to do exactly this with my next ubervillain (with the expectation that the minion squadrons will function more as a plot device to hide from, a la Wicked Witch's winged monkeys, and as general-purpose evil muscle not targeted specifically at the puny heroes--unless the heroes bring themselves to his attention).

I'm AFB, but are the Goristro's Cha saves really that bad? I've found that most high-CR monsters actually have pretty decent Cha saves, and are actually weakest on DX.

In any case, 4 PCs are unlikely to be able to Banish even a small platoon of basic CR 5 Air Elementals before the Air Elementals kill them to death, with 560 * (hit percentage) damage per round and move 90. (Or the elementals may grapple PCs and Dash upward.) Even if the PCs win initiative, and every single PC casts Banish every round, and every Banish succeeds, that's still 1120 HP * (hit percentage) of damage you're eating before they're all gone. Frankly I'd be more worried about Meteor Swarm than Banish if I were the elementals' master. (Note: if you're using elemental squads, you shouldn't use CR 5 elementals anyway. Spend the extra spell slots to summon CR 8 or CR 9 greater elementals instead, since it's the same gold cost and the spell slot cost doesn't matter.)

TLDR; I just don't see Banish as a viable countertactic. It's more something you use on enemies fueled by the Concentration economy, but against gold-fueled enemies it's like trying to fight an avalanche with a fire hose: you need an awful lot of Banishers to keep up with the influx.

 

[DaveDash]

Goristro wasn't my idea originally--I've been talking more in terms of elementals--but yeah, research the name + Gate spell is the only way I can think of to get a Goristro. Well, maybe Plane Shift would work too (I'm AFB and can't check the conditions on Planar Binding) but I wouldn't try it that way...



Wait, when did I ever say using dropping loads of elementals on the PCs was "'punishing' [the] Wizard" or not understanding the spells? In fact I've said the exact opposite: if I were running an Underdark campaign with wealthy, high-level NPCs, they would be sending 40,000 gp worth of bound minions out to kill their enemies (and Banishment won't help against 40 air elementals) any time they can locate those enemies. I've declared my intention to do exactly this with my next ubervillain (with the expectation that the minion squadrons will function more as a plot device to hide from, a la Wicked Witch's winged monkeys, and as general-purpose evil muscle not targeted specifically at the puny heroes--unless the heroes bring themselves to his attention).

I'm AFB, but are the Goristro's Cha saves really that bad? I've found that most high-CR monsters actually have pretty decent Cha saves, and are actually weakest on DX.

In any case, 4 PCs are unlikely to be able to Banish even a small platoon of basic CR 5 Air Elementals before the Air Elementals kill them to death, with 560 * (hit percentage) damage per round and move 90. (Or the elementals may grapple PCs and Dash upward.) Even if the PCs win initiative, and every single PC casts Banish every round, and every Banish succeeds, that's still 1120 HP * (hit percentage) of damage you're eating before they're all gone. Frankly I'd be more worried about Meteor Swarm than Banish if I were the elementals' master. (Note: if you're using elemental squads, you shouldn't use CR 5 elementals anyway. Spend the extra spell slots to summon CR 8 or CR 9 greater elementals instead, since it's the same gold cost and the spell slot cost doesn't matter.)

TLDR; I just don't see Banish as a viable countertactic. It's more something you use on enemies fueled by the Concentration economy, but against gold-fueled enemies it's like trying to fight an avalanche with a fire hose: you need an awful lot of Banishers to keep up with the influx.

Right I see, you're talking from the villains point of view.

There are a few problems with your tactic, firstly, you'd have to cast planar binding as a high level spell to get the duration out of it required. That means you can only bind one creature per day for 10 days (maybe more at very high levels), one creature per day for 30 days (with a 7th level slot), or one creature per day using an 8th level slot for 180 days. That means you need to be a 15th level caster and spend approximately 40 days minimum binding all these elemental. In 40 days due to the wonders of things like Wind Walk, this adventure will be over. It's currently day 10, and they're already 100 miles into the underdark.

Then once you have your 40 elementals they need to track down the PC's. There isn't really "Scry and Die" any more. My group always sleeps in a magnificent mansion and they use Wind Walk to travel around, so actually tracking them down is going to be pretty difficult. You can't scry on them when they're in their mansion, AFAIK, and wind walked they move much faster than your elementals. About the best you could do is somehow locate their mansion portal when they sleep and then put the elementals outside, but they do alarm it and have their familiar watch, so there is nothing stopping them just plane shifting somewhere else if they suspect an ambush.

Now let's say you DO finally track them down with your horde of elementals, then yes, in this particular case banish isn't going to be very useful. My group would just force cage themselves (or wall of force) then GTFO, and come back with some other spells prepared (like Magic Circle) or reverse gravity or something. Depending on your world, 40,000GP is fairly non trivial. The module I am running says the BBEG won't use true resurrection more than once due to its cost, so she probably wouldn't use this tactic more than once either.

I think the hardest part in your strategy is LOCATING the PC's, and that's where it falls down. You can't teleport 40 elementals at once so unless they happened to find them somewhere, you'd still only be attacking in waves. Also in the underdark in Faerun you cannot teleport very far in it anyway.

If you do think of a way to pin down a wind walking paranoid group that sleeps in MM, then by all means, let me know (short of Wish, which is risky). Because the module does recommend putting summoned creatures to good use against the PCs.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

What do you do to compensate for relative differences between two characters? E.g. if the Fighter is kicking all kinds of ass while the Rogue(/Thief) struggles to find ways to contribute to the party's goals, how do you adjust for this?

I make sure that there is a wide range of different challenges that provides each player with opportunities to contribute. Fighters generally can't pick locks or sneak around very well, to use your example.

In any game session, I rarely have more than one combat encounter, and often don't have one at all. Characters are just as likely to have challenges like finding (or making) potable water, dealing with social situations, catching a runaway horse, etc. The more variety in the challenges, the easier it is to give everyone a chance to shine.

I also praise and give extra experience for players who come up with unique solutions to problems. For example, if an adventuring party ends up in a fight where the creature is resistant to the types of spells a low-level bard can cast, I would reward any creative way the player came up with to help people out. That might include using his or her performance skills in some way to distract or irritate the monster, lighting the grass on fire, etc.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

That's a valid approach. I do the opposite: I control essentially nothing[1] but telegraph everything. "Here there be dragons!" If players want to fight beholders, they know where to find them. If they want to spend every session fighting small groups of humanoids at 20th level, they can do that too.

[1] I'm overstating things somewhat. It's not a static sandbox, and yes, there may be death cultists summoning Cthulhu in the capital and a vampire infestation popping up and the Duke's son falling in love with a peasant woman and the peasant woman looking for ways to become a hero to prove herself to his parents... but the players do have the option of just letting the death cult win and sticking to the "easy" kobolds instead. It would be more accurate for me to say that I control the world, but strive to create a world which maximizes the players' agency.

I do, too, to be honest. I primarily run sandbox-style games, but even with those you have to come up with things for the characters to encounter if they make certain choices. I make sure that the challenges I spread around the world are varied and take into account the strengths and weaknesses of the available character classes, too.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I think the hardest part in your strategy is LOCATING the PC's, and that's where it falls down. You can't teleport 40 elementals at once so unless they happened to find them somewhere, you'd still only be attacking in waves. Also in the underdark in Faerun you cannot teleport very far in it anyway.

If you do think of a way to pin down a wind walking paranoid group that sleeps in MM, then by all means, let me know (short of Wish, which is risky). Because the module does recommend putting summoned creatures to good use against the PCs.

I agree that localizing the PCs is the hardest part (and that's a good thing! Encourages/rewards smart play by your PCs). Catching up isn't a problem though, that's what Transport Via Plants is for. In one round you can (technically) move all 40 air elementals through the gate, no problem. It's not really realistic but then neither is most of what PCs and NPCs do in a round of combat. (Bardic Inspiration and a Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words as a reaction on the bad guy? How fast exactly can your bard talk?) If you don't have a druid you can cast that spell via Wish. Bonus points if you do it while they are shifting into Wind Walk form and are helpless.

Another option is to transform all the elementals into mice with Animals Shapes (via Wish) and then release the spell after you teleport. Bonus points there if you also turn real mice into elephants at the same time you release the elementals.

 

[DaveDash]

I agree that localizing the PCs is the hardest part (and that's a good thing! Encourages/rewards smart play by your PCs). Catching up isn't a problem though, that's what Transport Via Plants is for. In one round you can (technically) move all 40 air elementals through the gate, no problem. It's not really realistic but then neither is most of what PCs and NPCs do in a round of combat. (Bardic Inspiration and a Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words as a reaction on the bad guy? How fast exactly can your bard talk?) If you don't have a druid you can cast that spell via Wish. Bonus points if you do it while they are shifting into Wind Walk form and are helpless.

Another option is to transform all the elementals into mice with Animals Shapes (via Wish) and then release the spell after you teleport. Bonus points there if you also turn real mice into elephants at the same time you release the elementals.

A couple of assumptions there.

1. The BBEG has to have access to this spell (how many Evil Druids / Lore Bards are hanging out in the underdark for this purpose)?
2. The BBEG has to have seen the plant they're teleporting too, not necessarily likely given the players are whizzing along at 300ft movement rate.
3. There are not too many plants scattered around the underdark, mostly mushrooms and things from mushroom fields, but finding 'Large or Larger' plants that just happen to be located near the PC's is not going to be that easy.
4. Moving 40 Elementals through the portal in one round is a bit iffy.

Turn the scenario up on its head, present that to your group. They have to:

1. Spend 40 days creating 40 elementals while you know a group of BBEGs is coming after you, and could be at your doorstep any minute.
2. Spend 40,000GP.
3. Locate in the underdark the fast moving group of BBEGs who rest in another plane, and are difficult to scry upon reliably.
4. Somehow find a large plant near them, and a large plant near you, in an instant when they are not whizzing around at 300ft movement.
5. Get the drop on them.

I bet your group will look at you funny if you proposed this to them. They'd much rather just windwalk in there and take on the bad guys themselves than all this effort and "ifs and buts".

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A couple of assumptions there.

1. The BBEG has to have access to this spell (how many Evil Druids / Lore Bards are hanging out in the underdark for this purpose)?
2. The BBEG has to have seen the plant they're teleporting too, not necessarily likely given the players are whizzing along at 300ft movement rate.
3. There are not too many plants scattered around the underdark, mostly mushrooms and things from mushroom fields, but finding 'Large or Larger' plants that just happen to be located near the PC's is not going to be that easy.
4. Moving 40 Elementals through the portal in one round is a bit iffy.

Turn the scenario up on its head, present that to your group. They have to:

1. Spend 40 days creating 40 elementals while you know a group of BBEGs is coming after you, and could be at your doorstep any minute.
2. Spend 40,000GP.
3. Locate in the underdark the fast moving group of BBEGs who rest in another plane, and are difficult to scry upon reliably.
4. Somehow find a large plant near them, and a large plant near you, in an instant when they are not whizzing around at 300ft movement.
5. Get the drop on them.

I bet your group will look at you funny if you proposed this to them. They'd much rather just windwalk in there and take on the bad guys themselves than all this effort and "ifs and buts".

No fair calling "access to evil druid" an assumption when I specifically called it out as NOT assumed.

Divination lets you see the plant.

If there are no huge mushrooms in your Underdark, it is rather different from the one I'm familiar with.

No fair calling "move 40 move 90 air elementals through the plant" an assumption when it's 1.) Perfectly legal by RAW, 2.) As realistic as a bard using his mouth for four different purposes in a single round, 3.) Already specifically called out in my post.

BBEGs create their brute squads in advance, not on-demand, so the fact that your PCs can't easily do so on the fly when they are already on the defensive means little. As for the 40K gold cost, yes, the wealth of the BBEG is a postulate. That said, I would have no objections to PCs using this tactic as well if they know a threat is coming. (BBEGs always assume threats are coming so they do this habitually.) For example, if I were a PC in Rise of Tiamat, you can bet I'd be spending all the treasure I can find on creating an elemental brute squad in my downtime. But you're correct that "when the moment of decision arrives, the time for preparation has passed," to quote Thomas S. Monson.

P.S. In your hypothetical situation, how does skipping the planar binding improve the situation? If you can't localize the PCs, you can't localize the PCs. Not having a brute squad with you solves nothing.

 

[Celtavian]

He can counterspell their banishment yep, they can counterspell his counterspell. The bard then counterspells their counterspell, and another Drow caster counterspells the bards counterspell. Been there got the t-shirt, and it's a great way for them to chew through spell slots very quickly.
Meanwhile, sooner or later, the fiend will get banished. It's a much more sound tactic I reckon to summon a Planatar, especially since it's going to be able to move around unimpeded most places and has much better charisma saving throws.

Where's any rules about what is standard in 5E? Why are casters rare? There are no such rules. I'm running a WoTC published adventure, so I'll take their canon over your assumptions.

You're running WotC 5E designed adventures? The reduced number of spell slots and the way magic works is by implication going to require a reduced number of casters to allow your casters to thrive. If you're converting adventures built on 3E material, that's going to make things very different because they were built using 3E magic parameters that were much common than 5E.

Planar Binding has a lot of DM leniency written all through it. And for the record, I wouldn't allow SS +Crossbow Expert as written in my game. And why on earth would a Wizard waste his 9th level slot on a 7th level slot that may or may not be very useful long term?

Wow. Are you really missing that you do this before the adventure starts during down time.

Me for example, spend my down time hunting down a suitable target for a simulacrum using wish. I get my 9th level spell slot every day whether or not I'm in battle. When I'm higher level, I may travel to another plane and bind a creature in my free time...you know, while the fighter is sharpening his sword or building his keep. I'm doing other stuff.

Or you could just put Foresight on your Fighter buddy and just basically kill everything in the game instead of blowing your 9th level spell on something like that.

Why isn't that being counterspelled or dispelled? If your party is going against all these multiple casters easily capable of banishing anything your wizards summons and binds, but somehow they don't have the spellpower to dispel or counter foresight and haste and other such spells that can be taken down? If they have all these slots, why not use them to slow the opponent down? haste is pretty much an automatic dispel. There is literally nothing your Eldrtich Knight casts an opponent mage can't automatically dispel. Do they only target the wizard in your campaigns?

And you'll see once you actually start using a lot of this stuff in practice vs in paper it probably isn't all its made out to be.

No. I think I'll discover that it works just fine. You make it sound like every single fight of every single module is going to be groups of casters. For example, Mister Dragon flying 600 feet away happened to have tons of casters supporting him I guess. That will be how it is always.

My current experience is there aren't as many casters in designed modules as previous editions, a thing I've already noticed in the current designed modules. Sounds like you're either converting old modules designed when magic was plentiful with caster heavy enemies in major encounters or using something you made up. Either way, I'm betting new design parameters limit the amount of counter casting possible because it would make caster players unenjoyable to play.

I noticed that they took casting away from dragons, demons, devils, and many of the outer planar creatures making it much harder to easily dispel or counter what casters do. I figure that was a design decision given the way they changed magic to allow wizards and other casters to still thrive in the changed environment. What 5E underdark module are you running with all these casters easily defeating what your wizard is doing? I still have no idea how all these casters can't somehow deal with the fighter, but it is easy to banish the demon who also has advantage on Charisma saving throws. It is that extensively difficult to banish the fighter? You did see that banish works on everything?

It also sounds like your wizard isn't doing much preparation during downtime. His spell slots work just as well during down time. He can easily teleport to a place where he is safe to use them for a few days to create a simulacrum or bind a creature, rest up and return with full spell slots. Maybe the wizard globe of invulnerability on his familiar and places him on the things shoulder to fight when dealing with many casters. I guess it is ok to take tons of short rests to let the fighter get his stuff back, but not to take rest to let the wizard use a 9th level slot to simulacrum, then rest to get it back. Suffice to say I will spend my downtime in a more productive manner than your wizard player is doing.

Dave, you've spent a lot of time doing simple damage optimization. Doesn't sound like you spent so much time doing wizard optimization. Maybe you don't like wizards as much, I don't know. You're the one that said other classes were more powerful. Then you backtracked and said in a group. Now you're backtracking again and every fight is a bunch of casters counterspelling, banishing, and dispelling the wizard. I know not all fights are against cadres of casters contrary to what you're stating. I know there are plenty of fights against tough creatures that will have to eat what I do to them. Tons of fights against stuff that won't be able to easily banish, counter, or dispel what I do. I know when you're fighter or paladin that does a ton of nova damage is fighting tons of minions that my army of summoned creatures, AoE damage, and my bodyguard simulacrum are handling with fair ease, I'll compliment him for being a nice shot or swinging a blade well. I always love martials. They make my life much easier. I hope I do the same for them. What would a great martial be without a powerful wizard at his back. It's like a good powerful marriage.

All the classes you listed as "more powerful" in your opinion, I can do more against the majority of enemies then they can. I can prepare better. I can alter my strategy better. If I need to, I can bring the pain better. That is what I was talking about when I said the wizard was back on top of the power pyramid where he should be, just like every fantasy book I've ever read. I'm happy that gap isn't as big as it once was, but it's there. I for one am happy. If you're making a fantasy game and wizards aren't some of the scariest bastards walking the world, you did it wrong. I'm glad 5E did it right. I like scary, high level wizards back in the game. I can't imagine what stories like Tigana would like without the warring wizards, Dragonlance without Raistlin, Lord of the Rings without Gandalf, King Arthur without Merlin, Elric lacking wizard power, or even new fantasy heroes like Kvothe in The Kingkiller Chronciles or Bayaz in The First Law series.

That's why I love 5E. It returned the POWER to the wizard. He has to work for it, but oh it is there.

 

[DaveDash]

You're running WotC 5E designed adventures? The reduced number of spell slots and the way magic works is by implication going to require a reduced number of casters to allow your casters to thrive. If you're converting adventures built on 3E material, that's going to make things very different because they were built using 3E magic parameters that were much common than 5E.



Wow. Are you really missing that you do this before the adventure starts during down time.

Me for example, spend my down time hunting down a suitable target for a simulacrum using wish. I get my 9th level spell slot every day whether or not I'm in battle. When I'm higher level, I may travel to another plane and bind a creature in my free time...you know, while the fighter is sharpening his sword or building his keep. I'm doing other stuff.




Why isn't that being counterspelled? Why not all those multiple casters of yours with high level slots dispelling foresight and having done with? If your party is going against all these multiple casters easily capable of banishing anything they summon and bind, but somehow they don't have the spellpower to dispel or counter foresight and haste and other such spells that can be taken down. I guess it only works against the wizard.





No. I think I'll discover that it works just fine. You make it sound like every single fight of every single module is going to be groups of casters. For example, Mister Dragon flying 600 feet away happened to have tons of casters supporting him I guess.

My current experience is there aren't as many casters in designed modules as previous editions, a thing I've already noticed in the current designed modules. Sounds like you're either converting old modules designed when magic was plentiful with caster heavy enemies in major encounters or using something you made up. Either way, I'm betting new design parameters limit the amount of counter casting possible because it would make caster players unenjoyable to play.

I noticed that they took casting away from dragons, demons, devils, and many of the outer planar creatures making it much harder to easily dispel or counter what casters do. I figure that was a design decision given the way they changed magic to allow wizards and other casters to still thrive in the changed environment. What 5E underdark module are you running with all these casters easily defeating what your wizard is doing? I still have no idea how all these casters can't somehow deal with the fighter. Somehow it is so easy to banish the demon who also has advantage on Charisma saving throws , but it is extensively difficult to banish the fighter. You did see that banish works on everything right?

It also sounds like your wizard isn't doing much preparation during downtime. His spell slots work just as well during down time. He can easily teleport to a place where he is safe to use them for a few days to create a simulacrum or bind a creature, rest up and return with full spell slots. Maybe the wizard globe of invulnerability on his familiar and places him on the things shoulder to fight when dealing with many casters. I guess it is ok to take tons of short rests to let the fighter get his stuff back, but not to take rest to let the wizard use a 9th level slot to simulacrum, then rest to get it back. Suffice to say I will spend my downtime in a more productive manner than your wizard player is doing.

Dave, you've spent a lot of time doing simple damage optimization. Doesn't sound like you spent so much time doing wizard optimization. Maybe you don't like wizards as much, I don't know. You're the one that said other classes were more powerful. Then you backtracked and said in a group. Now you're backtracking again and every fight is a bunch of casters counterspelling, banishing, and dispelling the wizard. I know not all fights are against cadres of casters contrary to what you're stating. I know there are plenty of fights against tough creatures that will have to eat what I do to them. Tons of fights against stuff that won't be able to easily banish, counter, or dispel what I do. I know when you're fighter or paladin that does a ton of nova damage is fighting tons of minions that my army of summoned creatures, AoE damage, and my bodyguard simulacrum are handling with fair ease, I'll compliment him for being a nice shot or swinging a blade well. I always love martials. They make my life much easier. I hope I do the same for them. What would a great martial be without a powerful wizard at his back. It's like a good powerful marriage.

All the classes you listed as "more powerful" in your opinion, I can do more against the majority of enemies then they can. I can prepare better. I can alter my strategy better. If I need to, I can bring the pain better. That is what I was talking about when I said the wizard was back on top of the power pyramid where he should be, just like every fantasy book I've ever read. I'm happy that gap isn't as big as it once was, but it's there. I for one am happy. If you're making a fantasy game and wizards aren't some of the scariest bastards walking the world, you did it wrong. I'm glad 5E did it right. I like scary, high level wizards back in the game. I can't imagine what stories like Tigana would like without the warring wizards, Dragonlance without Raistlin, Lord of the Rings without Gandalf, King Arthur without Merlin, Elric lacking wizard power, or even new fantasy heroes like Kvothe in The Kingkiller Chronciles or Bayaz in The First Law series.

That's why I love 5E. It returned the POWER to the wizard. He has to work for it, but oh it is there.

You know what? You win. Congrats. You've discovered secrets the rest of us are blind to, that will work flawless in every campaign, and have mastered the system. And you clearly also know the inner workings of my game better than my players, nay, even MYSELF.

For me now, I'm done with this thread.