D&D 5E Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design

[DaveDash]

I have seen the CE+SS combo up to level 13. I thought the Battlemaster fighter was the best fighter but at the highest levels I can see the EK being better, its just a bit meh below level 10.

Yeah EK only starts getting good when they get more spell slots, until then you're right, they're a bit meh. Fighter 11/Wizard or Fighter 11/Sorcerer is also better (better spell selection), but they lose out at capstone, and less action surges / short rest. We ran a Fighter11/Sorcerer 6 vs an EK 17 and he was probably better due to wider spell selection and the ability to font of magic more spells (more shields, etc). But at level 20 the EK was better.

For me the ultimate OP party at end game would be:

2 x EK Fighter 17+ Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter.
1 x Warlock2/Sorcerer 17 (Twin Foresight** + Agonizing Blast EB/Scorching Ray).
1 x Lore Bard/Life Cleric 1 (Healing, Bless, Res, Dungeoneering, Social, Counterspelling).

**This won't work.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah EK only starts getting good when they get more spell slots, until then you're right, they're a bit meh. Fighter 11/Wizard or Fighter 11/Sorcerer is also better (better spell selection), but they lose out at capstone, and less action surges / short rest. We ran a Fighter11/Sorcerer 6 vs an EK 17 and he was probably better due to wider spell selection and the ability to font of magic more spells (more shields, etc). But at level 20 the EK was better.

For me the ultimate OP party at end game would be:

2 x EK Fighter 17+ Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter
1 x Warlock2/Sorcerer 17 (Twin Foresight + Agonizing Blast EB/Scorching Ray)
1 x Lore Bard/Life Cleric 1 (Healing, Bless, Res, Dungeoneering, Social, Counterspelling).

The win foresight combo would be cute but Sorcerers do not get Foresight as a spell. I thought it was a great copmbo as well until I had a closer look at the Sorcerer spell list.

I'm thinking Fighter 11 is a key point to branch off from. I'm trying to figure out how to make an effective dex based melee fighter if feats are used and I am thinking something like fighter/Rogue using the shield bash feat. Taking half damage as a reaction, knock crap prone as a bonus action then sneak attacking them seems good.

Battlemaster fighter seems the ebst overall as if you are strength based and have an archer of sorts in your group giving them an extra attacks seems better than throwing a single Javelin.

 

[DaveDash]

The win foresight combo would be cute but Sorcerers do not get Foresight as a spell. I thought it was a great copmbo as well until I had a closer look at the Sorcerer spell list.

Lol, I totally missed that! Good catch. Well that changes things.

You could try something like Rogue17/Fighter3 and go champion, or Fighter11 (champion)/Rogue. I haven't worked out the numbers but the idea will be to boost crit range and thus double your sneak dice.

 

[KarinsDad]

Forget solo monsters. Nothing in the monsters manual, except perhaps the Tarrasque, can go toe to toe with a party with Sharpshooter Fighters/SorLock/etc in it.

How exactly are these high level sharpshooter fighters of yours making DC 17 to 21 Wisdom saves against Frightful Presence of Dragons or Dracoliches?

How exactly are these high level sharpshooter fighters preventing (for example) an ancient Black Dragon from grappling them, and then in 1.5 rounds of flying straight up 200 feet (i.e. 80 foot round one normal move, 40 foot wing attack round 1, 80 foot round 2) and attacking and then dropping them? That's a potential wing (15), tail (17), bite (19), claw (15), claw (15), frightful presence, drop (70) = 151 potential points of damage (less if any of these attacks miss, more if they critical). This is without a single spell (Haste could help out here a lot). In these two rounds, the rest of the party is not going to be taking out the dragon. Granted, a PC spell caster MIGHT have feather fall, but mostly, a dragon grappled fighter is in some serious trouble. With Haste, the Dragon could throw a breath weapon on top of this. A fighter might be able to escape the grapple, but he's still going to probably take tail and wing damage (32) and fall 120 feet (unless his turn is immediately after the Dragon's in which case he'll only fall 80 feet). That's still 74 likely points of damage in a single round.

The main chance the fighter has here is to avoid the grapple in the first place.

In fact, what stops the dragon from flying away from the PCs with the Fighter, pummeling the Fighter as it flies away and climbing higher and higher into the sky? Why would an intelligent solo dragon try to duke it out with PCs?


And, this also applies to lower level adult Dragons of size Huge or greater. They can move at full speed with a grappled PC of size medium or smaller.

In fact, lower level adult Dragons with legendary actions are even more deadly with this tactic. The 20D6 200 foot fall hurts a lower level fighter a lot more than it does a higher level fighter.


But, here's the real issue. Most intelligent powerful monsters would not be solos. They would have powerful minions, traps, lairs, and a wide variety of defenses. Even Dragons have to protect themselves against other Dragons. So yes, there could be some solo Beholders or Medusa's or some such, but most creatures should be found in groups for protection and power.

 

[DaveDash]

How exactly are these high level sharpshooter fighters of yours making DC 17 to 21 Wisdom saves against Frightful Presence of Dragons or Dracoliches?

Resilience (Wisdom) and Indomitable. If they're unlucky enough to fail, inspiration, if they're still unlucky enough to fail, Cleric casts calm emotions on them, or bard casts heroism, etc etc. No party should ever leave home without some way of dealing with fear.

How exactly are these high level sharpshooter fighters preventing (for example) an ancient Black Dragon from grappling them, and then in 1.5 rounds of flying straight up 200 feet (i.e. 80 foot round one normal move, 40 foot wing attack round 1, 80 foot round 2) and attacking and then dropping them? That's a potential wing (15), tail (17), bite (19), claw (15), claw (15), frightful presence, drop (70) = 151 potential points of damage (less if any of these attacks miss, more if they critical). This is without a single spell (Haste could help out here a lot). In these two rounds, the rest of the party is not going to be taking out the dragon. Granted, a PC spell caster MIGHT have feather fall, but mostly, a dragon grappled fighter is in some serious trouble. With Haste, the Dragon could throw a breath weapon on top of this. A fighter might be able to escape the grapple, but he's still going to probably take tail and wing damage (32) and fall 120 feet (unless his turn is immediately after the Dragon's in which case he'll only fall 80 feet). That's still 74 likely points of damage in a single round.

Misty step, disadvantage for the Dragon due to foresight, and ridiculously high AC from haste and/or shield. Eldritch Knight remember? Also the Dragon has to beat their athletics check, probably not going to happen.

In fact, what stops the dragon from flying away from the PCs with the Fighter, pummeling the Fighter as it flies away and climbing higher and higher into the sky? Why would an intelligent solo dragon try to duke it out with PCs?

Because the Fighter can shoot at it from 600 feet away if using a longbow, and a bit closer if using a crossbow, and is capable of doing 300 hit points of damage to it in the first two rounds of combat. The Dragon on the other hand probably isn't going to hit the fighter AT ALL with shield, foresight, and so forth. The only thing is breath weapon, and he still has 180-220 hitpoints, and the Dragon has to get line of effect against him (breath weapon can't go around full cover). Also Fighter can have Protection from Energy up as well from his Wizard/Bard/Whatever friend who is Ethereal keeping buffs running (or cast it himself as an EK).

When I fought an ancient red, by the time it actually got close to Fighter, it was already down about 400 hit points and it was basically time for it to retreat. And yes, it was using its legendary actions to move and get closer. Didn't have magic items either, with those, it would have been even more one sided.

 

[Zardnaar]

Resilience (Wisdom) and Indomitable. If they're unlucky enough to fail, inspiration, if they're still unlucky enough to fail, Cleric casts calm emotions on them, or bard casts heroism, etc etc. No party should ever leave home without some way of dealing with fear.



Misty step, disadvantage for the Dragon due to foresight, and ridiculously high AC from haste and/or shield. Eldritch Knight remember? Also the Dragon has to beat their athletics check, probably not going to happen.



Because the Fighter can shoot at it from 600 feet away if using a longbow, and a bit closer if using a crossbow, and is capable of doing 300 hit points of damage to it in the first two rounds of combat. The Dragon on the other hand probably isn't going to hit the fighter AT ALL with shield, foresight, and so forth. The only thing is breath weapon, and he still has 180-220 hitpoints, and the Dragon has to get line of effect against him (breath weapon can't go around full cover). Also Fighter can have Protection from Energy up as well from his Wizard/Bard/Whatever friend who is Ethereal keeping buffs running (or cast it himself as an EK).

When I fought an ancient red, by the time it actually got close to Fighter, it was already down about 400 hit points and it was basically time for it to retreat. And yes, it was using its legendary actions to move and get closer. Didn't have magic items either, with those, it would have been even more one sided.

Fireshield is probably better as it doesn't require concentration. My PCs want to use protection from energy but the concentration mechanic tends to kill it. I tried to figure out a way to be able to twin foresight and you can't AFAIK.

 

[DaveDash]

Fireshield is probably better as it doesn't require concentration. My PCs want to use protection from energy but the concentration mechanic tends to kill it. I tried to figure out a way to be able to twin foresight and you can't AFAIK.

Yup, Fire shield is awesome against Red/White Dragons. Didn't have it on Fighter though due to limited number of spells known (PFE is more generic). PFE is useful in Dragon fights where you superbuff your martial and hide.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yup, Fire shield is awesome against Red/White Dragons. Didn't have it on Fighter though due to limited number of spells known (PFE is more generic).

I liked your old party with the light cleric, Paladin, Lore Bard and Abjurer. I think yo may have accidental found some of the most powerful classes in the game though with that one as Paladin aura, lore bard and light clerics are all very very good classes.

A bit of system master is probably required though to negate fear effects either the right spells or hagin a Pladin in the party to buff saves. I will find out soon though as our green Paladin is lervel 5 ATM. We have been getting away from the uber damage builds anyway in favour of defences, overall DPM across the party and versatility.

Current Group
Paldain (the green one)
Fighter1/Warlock4
Life Cleric
Sorcerer (Dragon, fire)
The Paladin luck sacked an 18 charisma so it is now a 20 due to being a half elf.

 

[DaveDash]

I liked your old party with the light cleric, Paladin, Lore Bard and Abjurer. I think yo may have accidental found some of the most powerful classes in the game though with that one as Paladin aura, lore bard and light clerics are all very very good classes.

A bit of system master is probably required though to negate fear effects either the right spells or hagin a Pladin in the party to buff saves. I will find out soon though as our green Paladin is lervel 5 ATM. We have been getting away from the uber damage builds anyway in favour of defences, overall DPM across the party and versatility.

Current Group
Paldain (the green one)
Fighter1/Warlock4
Life Cleric
Sorcerer (Dragon, fire)
The Paladin luck sacked an 18 charisma so it is now a 20 due to being a half elf.

These guys are actually fighting a Shadow Dragon right now (They are level 14 vs CR18 Dragon - Spellcaster Variant). The terrain is pretty hard for them (close to the Shadowfel so it extinguishes Fire and Light spells, on a cliff face, and the Dragon's lair). I thought this would be a hard fight for them without a SS Archer type Fighter.
Basically superbuffed the Paladin and sent him in there. I also roll for magic items using the hoard rules (about 0.5 times the recommended amount though), so he had a few potions (Haste, Heroism, and Cloud Giant Strength!). Still, it is a hard fight, the hardest fight they've had in D&D or so they say. Cleric and Bard buffed and hid, Wizard blinked and supported the Paladin, Paladin (vengeance) went in there with fly + other buffs.

My experience with the Paladin that it is awesome with GWM, especially when you have a lot of hold person in the group, which Lore Bard, Abjurer, Cleric, and even the Paladin all have. Autocrit + extra attack = insane damage. He's hit for 12d6 + 45 + 21d8 against some held opponents without any magical buffs.
Yes that aura is so good to have around, I can't tell you how many times they've failed a saving throw but the aura has made them succeed. Just a great all round class. Your group will love having +5 to saving throws from your aura early on.

Our Lore Bard on the other hand went for a more social/CC/utility build. He'd be a bit more effective in combat if he picked up something like Eldritch Blast as part of his magical secrets, but in terms of adventuring he's got some very nice spells (Mansion, Wind Walk, etc), since after all, it isn't all about combat! He is squishy at times though, I've dropped him a few times, so at level 14 he picked up Shield.

Also we can't forget Kenny, the Owl Familiar.

 

[pemerton]

around 70-80 damage per turn

Just checking that I'm following this:

3 attacks (for fighter class) + 1 attack (for haste) = 4 attacks, for 1d8 (weapon) +5 (stat) +10 (feat) = around 20 points of damage per attack, for overall damage of around 80 per round.

Is that right?