D&D 5E Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design

[KarinsDad]

Thanks.

So "Dodge" doesn't literally have to be dodging. This is a bit like using "Disengage" to close and thereby avoid OAs.

Dodge is just the mechanical term. It's mostly just protecting oneself while hindering a foe in some way. Of the possible actions, most DMs and players tend to forget about Dodge, Ready, and Help. But all three of these have some situations where they are better actions than Attack.

And although Disengage is usually used to get away from a creature, Dodge is sometimes an even better choice. Say you have one foe on you and two more nearby, one 15 feet away on either side. You could disengage, but then all three foes might get to attack you normally on their next turn. If you Dodge and move away instead, then there could be 4 attacks instead of 3 (1 OA and 3 attack actions), but all 4 attacks are at disadvantage.

 

[KarinsDad]

2-3. Take note of the Fighter progression chart and you'll see something quite interesting in there. Fighters get 3 more feats than anyone else. Nothing theoretical about this. I'm not making up numbers, I'm pulling game statistics from real combat recorded in roll20.

Fighters get 2 more potential feats than anyone else, but the second of those does not occur until 14th level.

 

[DaveDash]

[MENTION=6786202]DaveDash[/MENTION], thanks for the reply - and now a follow-up!

Can you unpack this one for me:

This was against a Drow Cleric, failed it's Hold Person saving throw. Paladin moved in and..

1. Three hits (due to great weapon master procing an extra attack on a crit).
2. Each hit is also an auto crit due to the paralyzed condition.
3. Greatsword so weapon damage is 12d6 (three hits for 2d6 each, double for a crit).
4. +15 from strength for three hits, then also +30 from GMW -5 +10, to give a total modifier of +45
5. Improved Divine Smite adds 6d8 radiant damage (again, 1d8 * 3 hits, and you double the damage dice for a crit).
6. He then burnt 2 * 3rd level spell slots for Divine Smite, which normally would be 8d8, but for a crit is actually 16d8.
7. That brings the total do 22d8 radiant damage dice (I was out by one earlier, oops!).

So 12d6 Greatsword Damage + 45 modifier + 22d8 across three attacks. I think his total was something like 170 damage.

 

[DaveDash]

Fighters get 2 more potential feats than anyone else, but the second of those does not occur until 14th level.

And I was discussing high level Eldritch Knight builds (Level 17+).

 

[KarinsDad]

Misty step, disadvantage for the Dragon due to foresight, and ridiculously high AC from haste and/or shield. Eldritch Knight remember? Also the Dragon has to beat their athletics check, probably not going to happen.

AC does not apply to grapple. And if grappled, he could be 100 to 120 feet above the ground in a single round. Yes, he could Misty Step 30 feet down, but then he'll be prone on the ground taking 14+D6 of damage.

Eldritch Knights get Foresight?

Or is your 17th pal Bard or Warlock or Wizard casting that on him? And why is that PC not casting that 9th level spell on himself? Your entire scenario here only really works at real high levels.

What if the Dragon casts Dispel Magic? If it works, oops, tactic lost (and Haste and/or previous Shield automatically get dispelled).

The point is, if the PCs have these types of tactics and abilities, a DM is going to give a solo Dragon decent tactics to either counter them, or to make them less effective. Heck, most DMs would never have a solo dragon fight a high level group like this in the first place. Dragons are intelligent. They'll get a group of lesser creatures to attack with them at a minimum.

Because the Fighter can shoot at it from 600 feet away if using a longbow, and a bit closer if using a crossbow, and is capable of doing 300 hit points of damage to it in the first two rounds of combat.

Why exactly is the Dragon letting the party see it from 600 feet away? Why is the DM playing a 16 Int Dragon stupid?

What level fighter is this and why is he getting 5+ attacks per round starting in round one? How is it that he hits the Dragon every time even with -5 to his advantage? How is he coming into the fight with the one action Haste spell already cast? How is that Haste spell surviving the first breath weapon?

How is he always doing this? Does the Dragon not have spells too? Can it not cast Greater Invisibility and the Fighter has no clue where it is? Can it not cast Force Cage around the fighter and maybe get a few rounds respite from the longbow of death?

The Dragon on the other hand probably isn't going to hit the fighter AT ALL with shield, foresight, and so forth. The only thing is breath weapon, and he still has 180-220 hitpoints, and the Dragon has to get line of effect against him (breath weapon can't go around full cover). Also Fighter can have Protection from Energy up as well from his Wizard/Bard/Whatever friend who is Ethereal keeping buffs running (or cast it himself as an EK).

When I fought an ancient red, by the time it actually got close to Fighter, it was already down about 400 hit points and it was basically time for it to retreat. And yes, it was using its legendary actions to move and get closer. Didn't have magic items either, with those, it would have been even more one sided.

How many buffs can this theoretical friend in the Ethereal plane keep up? And how exactly is that party member helping if he is on the Ethereal plane? What happens on the round that the Dragon casts Etherealness to get away from the PCs and finds a PC there? That PC quickly goes back to the normal plane and the Dragon then follows the PCs around ethereally for up to 8 hours, just waiting for a chance to do something nasty and unexpected.

Or, what if the Dragon figures out that someone is in its domain and casts Etherealness to find out more about such intruders?


It does not matter what abilities PCs have. If a DM is doing a good job to challenge them, the PC tactics are not going to work every single time. The DM will throw monkey wrenches in and set up unexpected twists and turns to his encounters. Or at least, a good DM will do that. He won't allow a few PC combos in the game repeatedly turn Hard encounters into Easy encounters. And he won't let the PCs determine the time and place of every battle. The dragon that went ethereal to escape comes back two weeks later ethereal while the PCs are resting in town and spies on the PCs and then comes up with a plan to take them out one or two at a time.

 

[SirAntoine]

This post and the OP's title both seem pretty obviously flawed to me. Nothing can be "overpowered by design," because "overpowered" typically means "more powerful than intended." Every class is awesome at some things and relatively weaker at others. Monsters are tough and effective to match, which is why there are a million threads complaining about "rocket tag" and/or "hp bloat." If the game seems too easy or hard, the DM can easily adjust encounter difficulty. If it doesn't, where's the problem?

As for Sir Antoine's post, I actually can't understand what the complaint is.



Are you actually arguing that it was a GOOD thing that you had to spend a long time trying to understand the rules in 3e/PF? One of the aspects of 5e I'd consider an unqualified improvement over 3e is all the finicky systems (attacks of opportunity, grappling, etc) that they simplified.

As I touched upon, there are some big differences in how people define over-powered. I was surprised to learn this, and I regret it's such a barrier to our communications. 5th Edition is grossly over-powered, so much so I just would write to the designers if I thought it would make a difference.

It would be fine if it took longer to get these kinds of powers, or close to them.

 

[DaveDash]

The point is, if the PCs have these types of tactics and abilities, a DM is going to give a solo Dragon decent tactics to either counter them, or to make them less effective. Heck, most DMs would never have a solo dragon fight a high level group like this in the first place. Dragons are intelligent. They'll get a group of lesser creatures to attack with them at a minimum.

I'm glad you've finally worked it out, solo Dragon encounters don't work so well (unless you're running against a run of the mill party, of course). Or unless you give the Dragon a huge terrain advantage, such as in my example with my regular campaign.

Stuff

You seem to think I am white rooming this in my head.

Here is an idea, why don't you build the hardest Dragon encounter you can think of, then get four smart players who are optimisers to see if they can kill your Dragon, and get back to us with how you went.

Since you're so clever, much more clever than any player out there (but not clever enough to figure out your way around concentration mechanics or low level Wizards yet), you run the Dragon encounter.

Also I'm talking non spell caster variant Dragons here by the way, I do happen to think the spell caster variant makes them *much* more dangerous.

Until you've actually done this, the theory is all yours.

 

[Diamabel]

As I touched upon, there are some big differences in how people define over-powered. I was surprised to learn this, and I regret it's such a barrier to our communications. 5th Edition is grossly over-powered, so much so I just would write to the designers if I thought it would make a difference.

It would be fine if it took longer to get these kinds of powers, or close to them.

You are constantly running into this issue because, when discussing if something is overpowered, it tends to be a discussion of intra-system power levels, and not inter-system power levels.

 

[SirAntoine]

One of the worst things is if 5th Edition is spoiling players.

 

[SirAntoine]

in my short experience with the game,the math is wonderful! The PCs all contribute something, everyone has cool stuff to do. The game works fast. It's fun to play.

Personally, I would focus on what you can do to make adventures fun and challenging for the PCs brought to the table. Be a fan of the characters! let them be "powerful"! There's more to a character's story than the cool powers they obtain. What about the NPCs, relationships, reputations, deeds, legacies and plots? Aren't the PCs doing something? I mean besides running amok killing monsters and rolling dice?

Its our job as DMs to bring the rest of it. The rules have the numbers covered. It's your job to make sure the game is about more than numbers.

Excellent post. Is there room in 5th Edition for the players to feel they have to earn power, though? Regardless, it is the DM's job to bring the rest of the game to life. However powerful the characters are, it doesn't have to really "break" the game. 5th Edition is usable whatever your preferences are.