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D&D 5E Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design

pemerton

Legend
Most things should be accomplished without magic or special powers. Your chief weapons should be courage and will.
In the context of a RPG featuring action resolution mechanics, I don't really know what this means.

Rolling dice doesn't require me to be very brave. I guess with will I could browbeat or stare down the GM, but I assume that wasn't what you had in mind!

Are you saying that players should have to trust to the luck of the dice, and have their PCs die if they don't get lucky rolls?
 

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SirAntoine

Banned
Banned
Steps to address the perception that PCs are overpowered and that there is no challenge for them in the game:

#1: Make sure you're not handing out too much treasure or that the PCs themselves didn't beat the law of averages when they were rolled. If you follow the guidelines, a party of PCs should find a total of about 30 permanent magical items over 20 levels. Further, the stuff should not really start rolling in until ~5th level - a level where the PCs are intended to get a huge bump in power with more frequent real magic items, fireballs, second attacks, etc... If the party has too much good gear at any given point, it makes a big difference. It also makes a difference if PC stats are better than the point buy system would allow. Rolling stats is fine if you get fairly average stats, but when you have a few PCs strolling around with an 18 or 20 attribute at first level, it defies the expectations of the game. There are a number of parties out there with a few PCs with too much stuff and stats that are just higher than the designers intended. In many ways, having a 20 strength at first level is like starting the game with a +2 weapon.

#2: Easy and medium encounters should pose no real harm to a PC group. If you throw these at the group, there should be objectives other than killing the monsters to keep the PCs challenged. For example, can they kill the bandit orcs before the orcs slaughter the peasants? Can they cut through the bandits before their leader escapes with the loot? Can they fight their way past the pirates and get off the ship before it sinks? Kobolds die with one hit, but if the goal is to stop them from escaping and they have no wish to battle the PCs, it becomes an entirely different challenge.

#3: Hard and deadly encounters (just over the deadly threshold) tend to be reasonable challenges that the PCs should be expected to win unless they get unlucky. However, they are not all created equal. A 6th or 7th level party that encounters a giant with a tendency to roll critical on those thrown rocks can find themselves in surprisingly deep water before they get close. Sneaky monsters might be easy kills if the party gets the drop on them, but may fell a PC before they can react if the monster gets the drop on the PCs. Consider how you use these monsters to make sure they are an appropriate challenge. Remember that easy, medium and hard encounters are extremely unlikely to kill a PC. Only deadly encounters should have a chance of killing a PC.

#4: Don't be afraid to venture higher into the deadly range when building encounters. Just change the goal from beating the enemy to surviving the enemy attack and escaping. Make it clear to the PCs that they can't win and give them a route to escape. As an example, I recently tossed 5 6th level PCs against 40 zombies, 10 ghouls, 3 mummies, 2 vampire spawn, a vampire and 2 Immoliths (converted to be CR 9 each). This would have been a deadly encounter for a 20th level party. However, the goal was not for them to kill the enemies - it was for them to realize they could not win and flee in such a way that they only had to fight a small number of the enemies and survive long enough for the cavalry to arrive. The PCs definitely did not feel overpowered in this battle - but it set the stage for later battles against some of these foes in which the PCs will really feel their power growth.

Solid advice for people experiencing any of these difficulties.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
That's not a good DM, that's a terrible DM who runs Schrodinger's Dragon, who not only has variant spellcasting but also conveniently has every spell in the book memorized even when it's too high a level (need CR 21 for Etherealness so even CR 17 adult reds don't qualify, only ancients do) in spite of the fact that dragons only get a small handful of spells (Cha mod I think) and don't have any way to detect that someone Ethereal is in the vicinity. Metagaming and stat-boosting by fiat aren't related to "good tactics" or good DMing.

1) He was discussing 17+ level PCs, so they would not be fighting Adult Dragons, but Ancient ones. Adult dragons, even ones who could cast spells, would tend to be easy encounter for PCs 17th level and higher.

2) Every edition of D&D had dragons that could cast spells. Just because the MM calls it a variant does not mean that it cannot be used. In fact, I would rarely use one that could not cast spells. Dragons without spells are just big flying brutes with a lot of hit points and a breath weapon. Meh.

3) It's not that the Dragon detects someone Ethereal. It's that the scenario presented was one of the party arcane caster was casting a 9th level Foresight spell, and a 7th or higher level Etherealness spell, and the PCs basically knew where the Dragon was located, and they were able to shoot at it from far range, and a bunch of other conditions that favored the PCs. If I were DM, a dragon would have spies for dozens of miles around. Loyal minions who would report strangers, especially strangers that wear armor, have weapons, and cast spells. He would have traps and possibly a fake lair and guardians and magic items and a variety of nasty unexpected stuff.

But I do think that there are some spells that a Dragon might be likely to have. Feather Fall. Dispel Magic. Shield. Mirror Image. And for ancient dragons, Etherealness is not out of the question (but, Teleport might be a good alternative).

As DM, I do not adjust an encounter on the fly and throw out the best spell I can think of. But, I do adjust encounters based on the audience (i.e. the players and their PCs). A group of noob players? No, they do not get super tough encounters. A group of experienced players with super optimized PCs and tactics? You bet. I throw the kitchen sink at them. The will not enjoy an easy encounter and will want to flex their tactical and ability muscles.

I do however agree that a smart dragon won't let the PCs choose their battles. I think a smart dragon won't wait however until after the PCs have already raided him. Instead, he's got his hooks in all the humanoid/human tribes in the area, has spies in civilized areas, etc., to proactively seek out threats, and he is perfectly willing to destroy enemy humans while they are in the middle of their nightly long rest. (Note to self: ask my players when the last was their PCs removed their boots and armor and took a bath. Surely they must take it off sometimes?)

It still requires the spellcasting variant to make this work well though. Vanilla dragons are pretty limited... And brittle.

Not if the dragon has surprise and allies on his side. But yeah, to me, the game is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. Not DUNGEONS and dragons.

In fact in my game, I double the Charisma modifier number of spells a dragon knows to make it more in line with earlier versions of the game. The toughest 3E dragons could cast over 50 spells per day. I don't think 5E dragons should be that capable, but having 2 to 10 spells per day when Eldritch Knights get 11 a day max is not unreasonable.

Some of the earlier version dragons were also extremely good at grappling, something that got lost in 5E as well.
 


DaveDash

Explorer
I'm assuming that was enough to kill the cleric?

The 28th level sorcerer in my 4e game has an encounter power that is 3 attack at 1d8+1d10+50-ish, and can fairly easily set things up so he has +5 to hit, leading to a damage output of over 150 hp. But at that level, a typical foe has around 250 to 300 hp, so he will bloody them but not kill them.

So your numbers are consistent with my overall impression that 5e combats are quicker (in rounds per combat) than 4e. My feeling is that if the numbers were much lower than you're reporting, that would suggest that high level combat in 5e isn't noticeably quicker (in rounds per combat) than 4e. Does that make sense?

Much much much much much quicker (Highest I played in 4e was 18th level).

Also much quicker than 3e as well at higher levels.
 
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DaveDash

Explorer
That's not a good DM, that's a terrible DM who runs Schrodinger's Dragon, who not only has variant spellcasting but also conveniently has every spell in the book memorized even when it's too high a level (need CR 21 for Etherealness so even CR 17 adult reds don't qualify, only ancients do) in spite of the fact that dragons only get a small handful of spells (Cha mod I think) and don't have any way to detect that someone Ethereal is in the vicinity. Metagaming and stat-boosting by fiat aren't related to "good tactics" or good DMing.

I do however agree that a smart dragon won't let the PCs choose their battles. I think a smart dragon won't wait however until after the PCs have already raided him. Instead, he's got his hooks in all the humanoid/human tribes in the area, has spies in civilized areas, etc., to proactively seek out threats, and he is perfectly willing to destroy enemy humans while they are in the middle of their nightly long rest. (Note to self: ask my players when the last was their PCs removed their boots and armor and took a bath. Surely they must take it off sometimes?)

It still requires the spellcasting variant to make this work well though. Vanilla dragons are pretty limited... And brittle.

It's pretty easy to armchair general a fight when you've never ran one yourself (not referring to you).
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I'm glad you've finally worked it out, solo Dragon encounters don't work so well (unless you're running against a run of the mill party, of course). Or unless you give the Dragon a huge terrain advantage, such as in my example with my regular campaign.



You seem to think I am white rooming this in my head.

Here is an idea, why don't you build the hardest Dragon encounter you can think of, then get four smart players who are optimisers to see if they can kill your Dragon, and get back to us with how you went.

Since you're so clever, much more clever than any player out there (but not clever enough to figure out your way around concentration mechanics or low level Wizards yet), you run the Dragon encounter.

Also I'm talking non spell caster variant Dragons here by the way, I do happen to think the spell caster variant makes them *much* more dangerous.

Until you've actually done this, the theory is all yours.

I think I would like to volunteer as one of the players who knows whats what. Fighter, Lorebard, Wizard and light cleric seems fair maybe a Paladin;).
 

Nebulous

Legend
I don't know that it's a "problem" with encounter design either, because 5E is frankly set up to let the PCs win every fight (just look at the encounter building math) but I agree that some or many fights should include ranged combatants on the other side. I love hobgoblins BTW because they are tough and militaristic and absolutely WILL use good tactics.

Yeah, in LMoP I had a squad of hobbers advancing up a hill toward the PCs. They used their horses as 3/4 cover, a smart tactical move, and it boosted their AC into the 20s, but they still got killed fast. The two survivors turned tail and ran.
 

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