Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

[S'mon]

I'm not sure if you notice that the spellcasters are only more powerful than warrior types if you don't allow warrior types to get the phatty lewt they need to swing and beat stuff up and protect themselves.

I let them get the phat lewt as per wealth-per-level guidelines, sure. But 8,350 gp for a +2 sword or 18,350 gp for +3 sword doesn't compare to what a Wizard can get for that cash per RAW. Wand of Web per RAW 750x2x3 = 4,500 gp. Wand of Fireballs 750x3x5 = 11,250 gp.
The worst thing is, if I do give the Fighters truly cool gear (say a +3 Vorpal) the party just sells it and loads the Wizard up with more Wizard stuff! Efficient, but not 'balanced'.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

The complaint is that many DM's just play the game, and assume balance is there, or good tactics will out, or any number of other poorly constructed arguments I can think of, and have NO CLUE how it all fits together. They therefore not only close off the Wal-Marts, they think they are having an "Oh so cool" stingy low magic game, but find it perfectly acceptable to throw pit fiends at the party with ac 14 and a masterwork greataxe at level 12. Then its a tpk, and they just dont know why.

Well, I know why. I understand why. And for everyone on here who claims he's a tactical genius, who sends just the right challenge at everyone, despite mucking with magic item balance, and probably every other balance 2, I bet %50 kill players all the time because they had to draw their Guisarme +1 to fight the demon, while having Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Weapon Specialization: Greataxe, and Improved Critical: Greataxe. Or like my barbarian, who died to the demon without so much as a dagger +1.

Your problem is a crappy GM. Plain and simple. The rules are fine, as written, for playing, as long as your GM has the apparently Epic Level Feat: "COMMON GODDAMN SENSE!" when he runs a game.

He ran his oh-so-gritty Hovels & Hernia's game, set in a dreary medieval world where the PC's are always the bottom of the food chain, the wizard was limited in everything he did, and nobody had magical items, and you got killed.

Your GM was a tool. Plain and simple.

Don't blame the equipment, blame the guy using it.

 

[Rolzup]

Stop making sense.

Oh, it shan't last, I assure you. And perhaps we should add Talking Heads inspired Hero Cards, eh?

On the other hand, players also like to use magic items in odd, inventive, and ... who am I kidding... idiotic ways. They love the freedom to use the wrong tools to solve a problem. This happens more often in campaigns where they can't always buy the right ones.

A point. Years and years ago, I was a player in a post apocalyptic RPG. We met two or three times a week, gamed until Far Too late O'Clock, and generally had a really good time. And we started out with damned near NOTHING. We were poor farm boys, with maybe one rusty old .22 rifle among us.

And in the first session, we found a police car that had been buried uner a rockslide. We took EVERYTHING. Not just the pistol and shotgun, but the rear-view mirror (signaling device), the hubcaps (shields), the jack handle (club), and so forth. Lot of creativity, and stupidity, involved...and man, that was fun.

I've nothing against playing D&D in the manner of Tom Clancy-fancying accountants, but that approach has it's own share of drawbacks. The way I see it, it's not denying players the items they want, it's offering them a kind of enjoyment they didn't know they wanted.

Which may be arrogant of me. Oh well...

You're denying Burne his Erebus-givien right to design Weapons of Mass Conflagration, by the way. But I have a tendancy to see something neatish, or just plain silly, and base a sudden character concept around it. The fellow who brachiats from place to place with a pair of immovable rods, say, or your own idea for a halfling riding a war-dog with a collar of Spider-Climbing....

Try giving them names that are obnoxious puns.

You have a gift for that. Urbane Outfitters indeed!

 

[MerricB]

This is true of every single character resource presented in D&D source books.

It's true, and they already tried to fix it in PHB2. If you check back at the design notes, you'll notice they were aiming for a bunch of really good feats. (Not entirely successful, but anyway...)

Cheers!

 

[S'mon]

I
Oh, but as we know, not all DM's are the "Masters of Balance" and so they just open the MM and throw random CR 12 monster at the party, regardless. What, the Petrify effect is a DC 20 save and your saves are +2, +1 and +2 and the magic items in the group are 3 helms of underwater action and a folding boat, and we're in a desert? Sorry, I rolled it on the random encounter table.

I like how C&C handles this - all saves go up +1 per level, so there is far less need for protective items. In C&C a monster of similar HD is pretty much always a moderate to tough challenge. Magic weapons & armour help a lot, but C&C combat lethality is less (basically same as 1e) so you can at least usually retreat if necessary.

 

[MerricB]

If you read the 1st edition DMG, rulewise its an absolute mess, and some of the advice EGG gives is very suspect. (In fact, he specifically mentions that thier were failures to communicate in earlier books that created problems, for example people taking too literally the random treasure charts, so its not like he's unaware of problems.) But he never treats the DM as stupid, and he's clearly writing to the DM in a 'peer to peer' tone.

Unfortunately, Gary is also writing for someone who is telepathic and can read his mind. He very clearly states that you've got steer a middle course between "no treasure" and "monty haul treasure". It took until 3e for someone to work out what that actually *means* and put it in the rulebook.

 

[Seeten]

Your problem is a crappy GM. Plain and simple. The rules are fine, as written, for playing, as long as your GM has the apparently Epic Level Feat: "COMMON GODDAMN SENSE!" when he runs a game.

He ran his oh-so-gritty Hovels & Hernia's game, set in a dreary medieval world where the PC's are always the bottom of the food chain, the wizard was limited in everything he did, and nobody had magical items, and you got killed.

Your GM was a tool. Plain and simple.

Don't blame the equipment, blame the guy using it.

The story was fine. Lots of his ideas are good. He has no clear sense of balance. Does that make him crappy? It makes him crappy at balancing, yes. Part of the problem is he has the same ideas many people here have.

"Players dont need all this magic stuff, its ridiculous. No magic shops, thats ridiculous" and then the hard encounter shows up, half or more of the party dies, he's frantically fudging rolls, its awful. Easily fixable by dropping the attitude and including magic items like the rules expect you to, whether you flavor it as "Magic shops" or just asking what they want, and magically its in the treasure pile instead of 20,000gp of "Art objects".

If we had to beat up all bad GM's, when they could come to this very thread and read you guys advising them to just KEEP DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING, I dont see the leg to stand on. If you plan to give people a folding boat and a helm of underwater action, while in a desert, and not allow them to sell it, and not give them magic weapons, first, I'm sorry, like the DM we're discussing, you're bad, and second, why? Does it give you a perverse thrill?

Someone's sig is something like, "I have a place to go, advance slowly, get no recognition for my efforts, and get very little rewards for my efforts, and its called work" and thats oh so true.

 

[howandwhy99]

If I had magic shops in my campaign, my players would never bother with dungeons again.
"He's got a vicious, vorpal what for sale? We gotta loot this place."

 

[Celebrim]

If we had to beat up all bad GM's, when they could come to this very thread and read you guys advising them to just KEEP DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING, I dont see the leg to stand on. If you plan to give people a folding boat and a helm of underwater action, while in a desert, and not allow them to sell it, and not give them magic weapons, first, I'm sorry, like the DM we're discussing, you're bad, and second, why? Does it give you a perverse thrill?

As far as I can tell, you've got a chip on your shoulder; you are going to rant about this regardless of what anyone says to you, and you aren't going to actually listen to a darn thing anyone says to you. On top of that you are going to completely misrepresent anything anyone says to you, and you are going to be content sit here and knock down strawmen of your own creation while insulting anyone else around. So I for one am done. Go find some new DM's. Get some new experiences. Run your own games. Come back later.

 

[Celebrim]

Unfortunately, Gary is also writing for someone who is telepathic and can read his mind. He very clearly states that you've got steer a middle course between "no treasure" and "monty haul treasure". It took until 3e for someone to work out what that actually *means* and put it in the rulebook.

QFT.