Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

[Hussar]

I would point out a historical note about aristocracy. In many countries, the aristocracy rarely paid for anything, but would expect many things to be "gifted" to them. Artisans would possibly be given patronage, but, paid on a one for one basis? Not always.

For those who talk about PC's blowing huge amounts of money on non-magic gear, how often do your artisans gift anything to them in return for their patronage?

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Wow, this thread isn't locked yet?

Smart-assery aside, when players are limited in their choices, they're naturally going to pick the most useful options. This is especially true for feats. When you only get seven to choose from, you are pretty limited in what you can pick. Sure, it makes sense for a mounted character to pick Trample, but how does that preclude and limit his later choices? If he's a Fighter, Trample is just a drop in the bucket. But as a Paladin, Ranger, or Druid, that feat slot is a lot more valuable.

This kind of thinking applies to any kind of game. When your game is centered around political intrigue and social duplicity, and more than 75% of encounters do not result in combat, what's more useful: a +2 flaming longsword or a ring that adds a +15 to my bluff checks? I know which item I'll be picking.

I think people really get hung up on the "magic item price" thing. In reality that doesn't mean anything. You can call it whatever you please: power limit, item gauge, potato chips, squirrel-to-badger ratio. Makes no difference. It's simply a gauge of relative character power. And since many adventurers adventure for wealth and glory (and since glory is sorta intangible), it would make sense wealth by, wow, gp value would be a nice limiting factor. 3rd edition designers have been saying for years that the magic item creation guidelines are just that: guidelines. Hell, Ari came in here and said it himself, though he didn't really have to; isn't the very statement written in the frikkin DMG?

So you don't want magic item shops littering the countryside? Great, then they don't exist! And you don't want players decked out like Santa Claus? Cool, double all magic item prices. Or triple them. Or remove them entirely and create your own system. Maybe you want your PCs to be schmucks always scraping for the next down payment on their bar tabs. Bam, magic items are no longer a form of currency. They are not useful enough to common folk or maybe outlawed. Hell, maybe it's a barter economy, and a gold-filigreed sword that slays demons and pants rainbows in the sky is totally useless to the innkeeper who brews his own beer and needs other crops and meats to feed his family.

I don't see how the rules in the DMG preclude anyone from making these kinds of changes. Isn't a big part of playing this game making it our own?

 

[painandgreed]

I dunno, if the common commoner earns 2 sp/week (or 10 gp year) then 150 gp for personal grooming is outragous. Think; A PC goes into town for shave and a haircut and plops down 15 X the amount the barber would make in a year. In the real world, that's like going to Bo Rics and paying for an $11 haircut with a $100 bill and telling the cutter keep the change.

No, in the real world, it's like going to a real salon and getting your hair done right with some decent product rather than going to the mall Supercuts.

 

[Bagpuss]

So you don't want magic item shops littering the countryside? Great, then they don't exist! And you don't want players decked out like Santa Claus? Cool, double all magic item prices. Or triple them. Or remove them entirely and create your own system.

Sure you can do that but unfortunately published material assumes that PCs have wealth appropriate to there level and that they are able to and have spent that wealth reasonably wisely. If that isn't the case, like with any of the changes you've mentioned above, then you are also throwing out the CR system, and the ability to use any published adventures and the like, without major work converting them to your system and power level.

I don't see how the rules in the DMG preclude anyone from making these kinds of changes. Isn't a big part of playing this game making it our own?

Also a big part of why this game is so popular is because it is so well supported and a familiar ruleset for a lot of players the more you deviate from the 'norm' the less useful the brand of D&D becomes and you might as well play something else.

 

[Voadam]

Hmm, my 16th level eldritch knight in a solo game:

+3 Bastard sword (weapon)
Robe of the archmagi- white (armor, resistance bonus)
Ring of protection +4 (ring of protection)
Cloak of Charisma +6 (stat booster)*
Boots of Flying
Gloves of Arrow Deflection
Monk's Belt
Ring of Evasion
Hand of Glory
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Boccob's Blessed Book
Heward's Handy Haversack
Hat of Disguise
Wand of Cure Light Wounds

So I'm just missing the natural armor amulet. I like my third ring and hand of glory better. Particularly since I took the ring and crafted the Hand off the guy who had betrayed me and stolen all my stuff previously.

* My character is a wizard, his intelligence circlet was taken by a warlock who sold it and got a charisma cloak. We switched to recharge magic in the campaign and the DM modified that so high int does not give bonus slots so I've been happy to not replace the circlet and go with the cloak for now.

 

[Mallus]

Also a big part of why this game is so popular is because it is so well supported and a familiar ruleset for a lot of players the more you deviate from the 'norm' the less useful the brand of D&D becomes and you might as well play something else.

So the tag line for the new editions should have been 'Restrictions, not options'?

 

[LightPhoenix]

No, in the real world, it's like going to a real salon and getting your hair done right with some decent product rather than going to the mall Supercuts.

I don't know about you, but I don't pay fifteen times my annual salary on a haircut, or even being generous and saying I used to make three times what a "commoner" would, that's still on the order of a hundred-thousand dollars.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

So you don't want magic item shops littering the countryside? Great, then they don't exist! And you don't want players decked out like Santa Claus? Cool, double all magic item prices. Or triple them. Or remove them entirely and create your own system. Maybe you want your PCs to be schmucks always scraping for the next down payment on their bar tabs. Bam, magic items are no longer a form of currency. They are not useful enough to common folk or maybe outlawed. Hell, maybe it's a barter economy, and a gold-filigreed sword that slays demons and pants rainbows in the sky is totally useless to the innkeeper who brews his own beer and needs other crops and meats to feed his family. I don't see how the rules in the DMG preclude anyone from making these kinds of changes. Isn't a big part of playing this game making it our own?

Calm down nothing here to get that worked up over.

And I think you may be missing the point, a large part of the discussion has not been about getting rid of magic items. It's been about the way most magic items pc actually end up getting fit into a few categories of optimum attack/defense/or stat boosters leaving a lot of interesting but less vital items unused. Largely the discussion has been about how to modify things so that you maintain the assumed power curve while encouraging players to branch out more with their character's magic items.

Personally I favor something along the lines of what is being done with FF Zero or Hong's imbued magic items. Roll the big six into character progression, make them inherent. In one homebrew I do this, then go further. All the bonuses usually associated with permanent items(not wands, potions, or other expendables) are inherent and apply to whatever is appropriate. Weapon bonuses apply to any weapon the character uses including natural, armor bonuses apply to any armor including their skin. All these effects are considered an inherent part of their person. But aside from expendables the only items that are magic in and of themselves are legacy items and powerful artifacts. This frees me from following the existing wealth guidelines, I still give out wealth to the PCs in game, and it's still a lot comparitively but since it's no longer tied to magic items and character power I can tailor it as appropriate for the campaign or situation.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Sure you can do that but unfortunately published material assumes that PCs have wealth appropriate to there level and that they are able to and have spent that wealth reasonably wisely. If that isn't the case, like with any of the changes you've mentioned above, then you are also throwing out the CR system, and the ability to use any published adventures and the like, without major work converting them to your system and power level.

I agree, but I don't think it's as absolute as you make it sound. Adventures for 3.5 assume that characters are at or around the maximum wealth limit. That does not mean that they assume there are shops about town where one could purchase a holy avenger with the right amount of cash.

I'd argue that the assumption that players are at or around the wealth limit for level is less an assumption about the magic items they have and more an assumption about their relative power level. There are a number of suggestions in this thread alone that offer options for severely limiting magic items while keeping PC power level relatively the same.

I was hyperbolizing to a degree; yes, limiting or removing magic items will definitely require changes in other areas. Maybe PCs need to be boosted. Maybe monsters above CR 12 have their CRs increased by 2 to 4. Maybe it requires even more than that.

...the more you deviate from the 'norm' the less useful the brand of D&D becomes and you might as well play something else.

I absolutely agree, but does limiting the purchase of magical items really deviate from the "brand of DnD"? I don't think it does.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Calm down nothing here to get that worked up over.

I'm not nearly as worked up as you think I am. Again, hyperbole and all that. Actually, the thing that most upsets me is when a community of generally pleasant and friendly folks turn an otherwise interesting debate into flame war and name-calling contest. Not everyone is doing this, of course. But there's something about this topic that really polarizes people. It's ridiculous.

And I think you may be missing the point, a large part of the discussion has not been about getting rid of magic items. It's been about the way most magic items pc actually end up getting fit into a few categories of optimum attack/defense/or stat boosters leaving a lot of interesting but less vital items unused. Largely the discussion has been about how to modify things so that you maintain the assumed power curve while encouraging players to branch out more with their character's magic items.

Nah, I didn't miss the point. I liked that part of the discussion. I was more ranting about the other part of the topic, which dealt mostly with magic item "Wal Marts" and how much of a problem they cause. This of course confuses me. For whom are these Walmarts a problem? To the DM who disallows such "nonsense" in his games? No, because it's a nonfactor. Is it a problem for the DM who allows these conveniences? Obviously not, because it seems to be working for him. To the player who runs in either of these games? Maybe, because one might not be his style of play. If that's the case, that player needs to either 1) discuss it with the DM and maybe find a compromise or 2) move on and find another game.

Some of the attitude in this thread points to:

More magic items = less "mature" game
Less magic items = more "mature" game

I don't think anyone's openly stated it this way. But it's been implied plenty of times, by any number of people. It's an absurd notion; no one's game is better than the other.

Personally I favor something along the lines of what is being done with FF Zero or Hong's imbued magic items. Roll the big six into character progression, make them inherent. In one homebrew I do this, then go further. All the bonuses usually associated with permanent items(not wands, potions, or other expendables) are inherent and apply to whatever is appropriate. Weapon bonuses apply to any weapon the character uses including natural, armor bonuses apply to any armor including their skin. All these effects are considered an inherent part of their person. But aside from expendables the only items that are magic in and of themselves are legacy items and powerful artifacts. This frees me from following the existing wealth guidelines, I still give out wealth to the PCs in game, and it's still a lot comparitively but since it's no longer tied to magic items and character power I can tailor it as appropriate for the campaign or situation.

Seems like a fine solution to me. Have you found it limits your ability to play a module as written? Do you have to do anythin beyond converting loot into numbers more reasonable for your game? Do you need to throw the CR tables out the window, as some have suggested? Does any other part of the game need a major overhaul?