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Andy Collins speaks - the Elf Wizard

I dunno, still seems abit steep...

Elf Generalist: elf traits, +1 spell/level.
Human Specialist: Bonus Feat, +1 Spell/level, cannot cast from 2 schools.

I think the problem is that specialists give up too much to gain that +1 spell/level, and the elf racial sub gives up nothing for the same benefit. If they gave up SOMETHING (familair, bonus feats) than it would count for SOMETHING.

BTW: A dwarf fighter with subs...

GAIN: Weapon Focus with all Axes, +2 damage to racial foes, +1 AC in heavy armor.
LOSE: 3 bonus feats.

Still more than the elf generalist looses.
 

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Remathilis said:
I dunno, still seems abit steep...

Elf Generalist: elf traits, +1 spell/level.
Human Specialist: Bonus Feat, +1 Spell/level, cannot cast from 2 schools.

I think the problem is that specialists give up too much to gain that +1 spell/level, and the elf racial sub gives up nothing for the same benefit. If they gave up SOMETHING (familair, bonus feats) than it would count for SOMETHING.

BTW: A dwarf fighter with subs...

GAIN: Weapon Focus with all Axes, +2 damage to racial foes, +1 AC in heavy armor.
LOSE: 3 bonus feats.

Still more than the elf generalist looses.

Elf generalist gains casting from 2 schools and some traits that are largely meaningless.
He LOSES 1 hp/level, a very strong bonus feat, and (over 20 levels), 1.2 sp/level.

A dwarf specialist loses 2 schools and gains 2 hp/level and a ton of valuable racial traits, like saves.
 

I'd be more keen on that racial substitution level if the elf wizard gave up, say, Scribe Scroll in return for Eschew Materials and either a free Spell Mastery feat, or casting all spells at effectively one caster level higher (Note: not +1 caster level -- you want an additional spell slot, sacrifice the school access like any other specialist -- though I think specialists deserve an effective additional caster level in their specialized school).
 

MerricB said:
Andy Collins has offered some notes on using non-PHB races (such as the Gray Elf and Sun Elf) with the variant rules from the "Races of..." series:

Andy Collins:
Any DM using races that aren't from the PH will have to decide how they interact with the various racial options presented in other books.

Even with the superior elf races, I still think the benefits of specialization compare favorably to the elf generalist wizard level, so I don't think it's a no-brainer.

What the hell? A specialist wizard is not better than a generalist wizard. They are in many ways weaker. They're supposed to be balanced with generalist wizards. If you make an elven generalist wizards better than a normal generalist wizard then by implication you've made the elven generalist wizard better than a specialist wizard.

If Andy means to say that generalist wizards are weaker than specialist wizards then this just shows that he's lost the plot and don't know what he's talking about.
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
It was mentioned that the Red Wizard is an example of a Campaign Setting Specific PrC. Remember that they gave PrCs 'categories' of sorts in the DMG 3.5

Sure that's the official explanation, but it doesn't make a lot of sense if you think about it. It would make sense if DMG PrCls were given as "examples", with guidelines about how to make your own.
 

The specialist wizard is in one way weaker than the generalist wizard: they are barred access to 2 schools of magic (maybe one if they are diviners). It is generally (but certainly not universally) accepted that the specialist is more powerful than the generalist overall (I've seen designers point this out as a legacy imbalance from 2e; makes sense to me), although certainly not as versatile alone. This lies in the fact that you get to choose your specialisation and your barred schools. Assuming that you choose a specialisation that fits your character concept correctly, you will always want to prepare 1 spell per spell level from your specialty each day, so the requirement for the bonus slot to be from the school is nearly meaningless (I have met *one* wizard who felt chafed at all by this requirement, and he turned out to have specialised to reach a prestige class and not because he liked the school). That said, let's look at an 18 Int wizard (I would just use the base chart to illiustrate my point, but that would be unfair: most wizards eventually get 18 Int, and less Int makes this very bad for the generalist very quickly) and how many spells per day he gains from specialising (for simplicity's sake, I have converted spells into their SP equivalent so I can add them all up, counting cantrips as 1/2). Gain is the ratio of specialist to generalist. Notice how the generalist falls over a level behind the specialist starting at level 7, and it goes downhill very very quickly from there. In fact, after 14, the generalist falls over 2 levels behind the specialist!

Level 1: Generalist-3.5, Specialist-5, Gain-1.42857
Level 2: Generalist-5, Specialist-6.5, Gain-1.3
Level 3: Generalist-11, Specialist-15.5, Gain-1.409
Level 4: Generalist-15, Specialist-19.5, Gain-1.3
Level 5: Generalist-25, Specialist-34.5, Gain-1.38
Level 6: Generalist-33, Specialist-42.5, Gain-1.2878
Level 7: Generalist-48, Specialist-64.5, Gain-1.34375
Level 8: Generalist-60, Specialist-76.5, Gain-1.275
Level 9: Generalist-72, Specialist-97.5, Gain-1.35416
Level 10: Generalist-88, Specialist-113.5, Gain-1.2897
Level 11: Generalist-104, Specialist-140.5, Gain-1.35096
Level 12: Generalist-124, Specialist-160.5, Gain-1.29435
Level 13: Generalist-144, Specialist-193.5, Gain-1.34375
Level 14: Generalist-168, Specialist-217.5, Gain-1.29464
Level 15: Generalist-192, Specialist-256.5, Gain-1.33593
Level 16: Generalist-220, Specialist-284.5, Gain-1.29318
Level 17: Generalist-248, Specialist-329.5, Gain-1.32862
Level 18: Generalist-280, Specialist-361.5, Gain-1.29107

After this, the wizard spell progression breaks the usual pattern, plus most campaigns probably don't go this far, so I'm stopping. It's worth noting the general ratio is usually about 1.3ish, so the specialist might last four encounters, while the generalist runs out of spells after three. Sometimes, this advantage isn't worth losing two schools, but more often than not, it is. At low levels, the ratio is larger, and at high levels, the gap is so wide that the generalist is multiple levels behind. Specifically, depending on the PC's moral qualms with certain spells, it is often not too awful to lose Enchantment and Necromancy (there are some really great spells here, but nothing whose role can't be covered by other schools or your friendly divine spellcaster). That said, parties are often large enough to have a bit of overlap, which can help in deciding your prohibited schools (I'd feel even safer losing Enchantment if my party had a Bard, for instance). Some of the best 6-person parties I've seen have two specialists who have prohibited themselves from each other's specialty schools (especially back in 3.0 when you could have only 1 prohibited school sometimes). Nonetheless, sometimes a generalist is the right person for the job, I've just never had a player select one, even once, playing from AD&D 2e-3.5.
 


Nifft said:
More than you'd use a crossbow? Bows are worse until you get iterative attacks, or unless you have Rapid Shot.

Well, except for the fact that you can move and attack in the same round, instead of 'sattack and reload' or 'move and attack but then spend a full round reloading'.

J
 

Rystil Arden said:
It is generally (but certainly not universally) accepted that the specialist is more powerful than the generalist overall (I've seen designers point this out as a legacy imbalance from 2e; makes sense to me), although certainly not as versatile alone.

Why wasn't this problem rectified for all generalist wizards in Complete Arcane rather than a biased fixed in a race specific supplement? Why wasn't this problem fixed in 3.5e the "improved" edition? A sure sign of bad design, bad assumptions and most certainly bad playtesting. What does this say about the cleric then who gets the benefits of the specialist additional spell/day but none of the specialist's detriments?

Nonetheless, sometimes a generalist is the right person for the job, I've just never had a player select one, even once, playing from AD&D 2e-3.5.

Isn't non-popularity a basis for granting obsence benefits to the class (ala, Druids and Cleric)? Or is this a case of Priest of the Coast double standards again?
 

beaver1024 said:
Why wasn't this problem rectified for all generalist wizards in Complete Arcane rather than a biased fixed in a race specific supplement? Why wasn't this problem fixed in 3.5e the "improved" edition? A sure sign of bad design, bad assumptions and most certainly bad playtesting. What does this say about the cleric then who gets the benefits of the specialist additional spell/day but none of the specialist's detriments?



Isn't non-popularity a basis for granting obsence benefits to the class (ala, Druids and Cleric)? Or is this a case of Priest of the Coast double standards again?
I agree with you that a general fix would have been nice. As for the cleric, those extra spell slots have to be one of two spells, so its not quite the same unless you pick domains with spells that you will always want to prepare every day. Either way, the cleric is a very powerful class, and it does seem that non-popularity as a player influenced the cleric's empowering. Clerics were necessary in the party, but no one wanted to be the band-aid. Also, the elven generalist fix could not be used to fix the generalist weakness in Complete Arcane because that would shift the balance of the pendulum to make generalist much stronger. Fortunately, the elven race is a subpar choice for wizards, so I think that if you include the racial weakness into the mix, it comes out balanced. Its a very difficult call though, and I'd need to playtest it in order to see. If you allow +INT sun elves to get the class, though, it might become unbalanced, since sun elves are already good wizards. I just don't think there's an easy answer.
 

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