Andy Collins speaks - the Elf Wizard

[Gez]

I don't see elves as sorcerers, but as bards.

Elves are described as fancy people with delicate tastes, loving magic and swordplay, and being artistic in everything they make. They're also often supposed to have, thanks to their long life, a good knowledge of things from the past.

There's a class that's all about art, magic, and swashbuckling swordplay, plus knowledge of things from the past. This class is called "Bard."

For a pure spellcasting class, the most fitting choice for elves is wu jen. An arcane magic that's more in tune with nature and its spirit, more elemental-based, more chaotic (non-lawful requirement, taboos, spell secrets)...

Elves are subpar wizards because they're not supposed to be grumpy old coots with beards so long they trip themselves prone by inadvertently stepping on it.

As written in the PH, elves actually are a subpar choice for wizards--halflings are significantly better; heck, even gnomes are probably a better choice.

"Heck, even a race with free wizard cantrips is better at being a wizard." Well done, Captain Obvious.

3.5. missed the boat by making gnomes bard and elves wizard, when the reverse was much more logical and consistent with racial descriptions.

 

[FireLance]

In 3.0, Greater Spell Focus (non-core), Red Wizard (non-core) , and Archmage (non-core) interacted to produce irresitable spell DCs. Yet somehow these non-core materials were used as justification to alter core material, Spell Focus nerf and general arcane spell nerf, that necessitated 3.5.

You do realize that Greater Spell Focus, the Red Wizard and the Archmage are now core in 3.5e, right? Although they did change the Spell Power mechanic. Anyway, I think some spells needed to be nerfed, regardless of whether Spell Focus grants +1 or +2. Personally, I thought 3.0e worked fairly well, but got buggy in places. Since I could work around the bugs, strictly speaking, I don't think 3.5e was necessary. However, I am quite happy to get a new version that is a better game, because isn't that what progress is all about? Obviously, YMMV.

 

[Li Shenron]

As written in the PH, elves actually are a subpar choice for wizards

Glad that WotC took only 5 years to notice...

Elves are a good race, but in no way they are better than others as Wizards. There is not a single racial bonus which improves their spellcasting or wizardry, and the defense bonus of Dex (which is however roughly offset by the Con penalty) isn't specifically good for wizards, it's good for any class of course. Plus, the bonus proficiencies - while very nice at low levels - will be completely unused as soon as the caster has enough spells per day, and they benefit other classes more (rogues, druids, clerics).

The only elven bonus towards wizards is the favored class. Only... it doesn't make them better wizards at all! A favored class fighter CAN make someone a better fighter because it may allow to take a couple of levels in another class for some benefit, but you all know how much it costs in spellcasting to take a few levels in another class if you are a wizard.

Maybe the original sin is IMHO in how favored class work. OTOH, even a small bonus, such as +1 caster level in arcane classes, would have been enough to give elves the label "best wizards around", without unbalancing the races.

 

[MerricB]

It is rather subtle, actually, that elves aren't that good at being wizards. That the halfling makes a better wizard isn't at all intuitive.

Also, in the beginning, the human's bonus feat didn't mean that much for a wizard - it's improved significantly in the last year or so.

Cheers!

 

[Li Shenron]

You do realize that Greater Spell Focus, the Red Wizard and the Archmage are now core in 3.5e, right? Although they did change the Spell Power mechanic. Anyway, I think some spells needed to be nerfed, regardless of whether Spell Focus grants +1 or +2. Personally, I thought 3.0e worked fairly well, but got buggy in places. Since I could work around the bugs, strictly speaking, I don't think 3.5e was necessary. However, I am quite happy to get a new version that is a better game, because isn't that what progress is all about? Obviously, YMMV.

"Some say that's progress, we say that's cruel..." (any Australian remembers where this comes from? ).

Anyway, I think beaver2351 meant exactly that at least GSF was indeed made core to correct it ASAP. They could have corrected SF and wait for Complete Arcane for GSF, but that would have "left" the 3.0 GSF around for a while, and it would have been even more powerful with the reduced SF. It's more hard to advocate that RW and Archmage were made core only to fix the DC boosts, but it might have been one of the reasons indeed (honestly, I never understood at all why the Red Wizard was put in the 3.5 DMG).

 

[MerricB]

(honestly, I never understood at all why the Red Wizard was put in the 3.5 DMG).

Probably because it has a great picture (and that is on all RPGA membership cards that you get at conventions).

Cheers!

 

[Li Shenron]

Probably because it has a great picture (and that is on all RPGA membership cards that you get at conventions).

Cheers!

It's possible Is it the same picture it used to have in the FRCS?

 

[Gez]

The only elven bonus towards wizards is the favored class. Only... it doesn't make them better wizards at all! A favored class fighter CAN make someone a better fighter because it may allow to take a couple of levels in another class for some benefit, but you all know how much it costs in spellcasting to take a few levels in another class if you are a wizard.

Maybe the original sin is IMHO in how favored class work. OTOH, even a small bonus, such as +1 caster level in arcane classes, would have been enough to give elves the label "best wizards around", without unbalancing the races.

As I said in the other thread about that substlevel, it isn't an original sin. Elves were not designed to be good pure wizards, but to be good multiclassed wizards. That's why they have racial abilities that complements, rather than synergize with, wizard class abilities (fighterish weapon proficiency, roguish secret passage detection and perception bonus).
Look at arcane archer or bladesinger -- both classes are staples of D&D elvendom, and neither are powerful spellcasters. Instead, they're multiclass of fighter/wizard, one slanted toward bows and the other toward swordplay.

If you look at OD&D (Old Diaglo & Dragons), you'll find that the "Elf" class is just a multiclass fighting-man/magic-user.

Elves as "the best. Wizards. Evar!!!1!" perception comes from the Forgotten Realms and its Elven High Magic rather than from core D&D.

 

[Sammael]

Probably because it has a great picture (and that is on all RPGA membership cards that you get at conventions).

You know who was the model for the picture, right?

 

[Henry]

I want to say either Sean Reynolds or Anthony Valterra, but I could be wrong.