Andy Collins speaks - the Elf Wizard

[beaver1024]

Also, the elven generalist fix could not be used to fix the generalist weakness in Complete Arcane because that would shift the balance of the pendulum to make generalist much stronger.

This is exactly the question Merric posed to Andy. If it comes out that the elven generalist fix makes a generalist wizard much stronger than a specialist wizard then it is a no brainer choice. All elven wizards would pick up elven generalist wizard substitution levels because the alternatives (ie specialisation) would be a sub par choice. Hence the "no specialisation" penalty isn't really a penalty at all.

 

[MerricB]

What the hell? A specialist wizard is not better than a generalist wizard. They are in many ways weaker. They're supposed to be balanced with generalist wizards. If you make an elven generalist wizards better than a normal generalist wizard then by implication you've made the elven generalist wizard better than a specialist wizard.

If Andy means to say that generalist wizards are weaker than specialist wizards then this just shows that he's lost the plot and don't know what he's talking about.

Probably the opposite.

Specialist wizards gain an additional spell slot of every level over the normal generalist wizard. The elf generalist reduces that by one slot, but that's not very much.

Losing two schools gives a slight decrease in versatility, in exchange for a significant increase in power.

 

[MerricB]

Up to 19th level actually, yes.

I think the elf weapon proficiencies are great. They're an attractive part of being an elf (especially an elf rogue).

However, they don't really impact on the core business of being a wizard. If you have a bow, you can participate in a minor way in the combats where your spells don't work.

Otherwise, you should really be standing back and flinging spells.

Cheers!

 

[Three_Haligonians]

It's amazing what happens when things are spelled out for you

I don't see elves as sorcerers, but as bards.

Elves are described as fancy people with delicate tastes, loving magic and swordplay, and being artistic in everything they make. They're also often supposed to have, thanks to their long life, a good knowledge of things from the past.

There's a class that's all about art, magic, and swashbuckling swordplay, plus knowledge of things from the past. This class is called "Bard."

...

3.5. missed the boat by making gnomes bard and elves wizard, when the reverse was much more logical and consistent with racial descriptions.

Wow, that makes a surprising amount of sense.. thank you for pointing it out. You've made a convert out of me for sure.

J from Three Haligonians

 

[Li Shenron]

I think the elf weapon proficiencies are great. They're an attractive part of being an elf (especially an elf rogue).

However, they don't really impact on the core business of being a wizard. If you have a bow, you can participate in a minor way in the combats where your spells don't work.

Otherwise, you should really be standing back and flinging spells.

Cheers!

That's just what I meant to say in one of my previous posts. Just to mention, I've playing an elven sorceress (ok ok, a Sorcerer has much more spells per day than a Wizard that's true ) for one year in a current campaign, and on my character sheet the ammunition entry says Arrows:19. That means I've been shooting exactly 1 arrow only in the last year, although we started at level 6th, if we had started at level 1st I'm sure I would have shot many more. In fact I wrote that the elven proficiencies are great for arcane casters only at the early levels.

On the other hand I played an elven cleric and a rogue before, and for them the extra proficiencies are definitely more useful. For a druid it's even better, since druids cannot even use crossbows without a feat.

 

[Gez]

As for the cleric, those extra spell slots have to be one of two spells

No they aren't.

For a given spell level:

• A wizard will have, at most, and 4+bonus slots per day.
• A specialist wizard will have 4+bonus+1 specialty slots per day.
• A sorcerer will have 6+bonus slots per day.
• A cleric will have 5+bonus +1 domain slots per day.

So a cleric will effectively have as many spell slots as a sorcerer, and will still have one generic slot more than the specialist wizard.

(OK, so in the four highest spell levels, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th, the cleric will only have 4+bonus+1 domain.)

 

[Evilhalfling]

I don't see elves as sorcerers, but as bards.

Elves are described as fancy people with delicate tastes, loving magic and swordplay, and being artistic in everything they make. They're also often supposed to have, thanks to their long life, a good knowledge of things from the past.

There's a class that's all about art, magic, and swashbuckling swordplay, plus knowledge of things from the past. This class is called "Bard."

I agreed with you and ran a campaign where bard was elves fav class and thier culture glorified bards. Still no one ever played one- monk, druid and wizard were used instead. over about 3 years. Most players don't want to play bards, we have had 2 both were human, and one only lasted 2 sessions before being abandonded. They gave bard to gnomes, but since I dont use gnomes as written this has little effect IMC.

admittitly we are starting a 3.0 game next and bards made decent archers in 3.0 and with 6 players a bard would do well as a support char... perhaps I will ready a elven archer/bard.

 

[Rystil Arden]

No they aren't.

For a given spell level:

• A wizard will have, at most, and 4+bonus slots per day.
• A specialist wizard will have 4+bonus+1 specialty slots per day.
• A sorcerer will have 6+bonus slots per day.
• A cleric will have 5+bonus +1 domain slots per day.

So a cleric will effectively have as many spell slots as a sorcerer, and will still have one generic slot more than the specialist wizard.

(OK, so in the four highest spell levels, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th, the cleric will only have 4+bonus+1 domain.)

Except for cantrips, the fact that cleric caps at 5 spells in his weakest slots doesn't even come into play until level 11 (they are 100% equivalent to wizards in slots/day until then). Its a bit faulty to compare the cleric to the sorcerer at level 20 and then try to equate them throughout, since throughout their early career, the sorcerer always has more spells than the cleric even after the cleric's domain spells, except during those awful lag levels where the sorcerer doesn't gain the new spell level. That being said, starting at level 11 and culminating by level 20, the cleric does indeed have one more of his weakest spells per day, plus two more orisons. That's 387.5 to the specialist's 361.5, for a negligible gain of 1.07. That being said, it certainly doesn't make the poor generalist feel good.

 

[Kalendraf]

Personally, I've never really bought into the whole Elf Wizard propaganda. To me, elves are tied closely to nature and natural magic rather than arcane magic. They should have either Druid or Ranger as their favored class. That's how I'm houseruling my current campaign, and I would happily do it again for future ones.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I always thought that the favored class was to encourage elfin Fighters to take a level or three of Wizard, not the other way around.

Favorite tactic in an all elf party I ran once - sleep spells cast indiscriminately, after all they were all immune to the effects... Fighter engages goblins, wizard drops a sleep on the whole area.

The Auld Grump, who likes the elfs as bards idea, and may yoink it for a future campaign.