Andy Collins speaks - the Elf Wizard

[Jdvn1]

Is this a question of racial balance or class balance? I think Andy's confused here which is which. Clearly the whole Elven wizard racial substitution level was not tested or thought out because trying to bring the racial imbalance into class imbalance will cause even more problems with Elven subraces which are clearly make superior wizards (eg Sun Elves, Grey Elves). Grey Elves are also in core rules.

Smells quite badly of the 2e attitude that Elves should be better than everyone at everything concept.

They're racial substitution levels. When people refer to 'Elves' in D&D, they refer to the standard Elves in the PHB, subraces are optional playable races. If you look at Elves' Favored Class, it's Wizard. So, the Racial Substitution Levels make Elven Wizards an appealling choice. I don't see the problem.

And Elves aren't better than everyone at everything. I don't think they make very good Monks, they don't make the best Fighters, they make poor Barbarians, decent but not great Rangers, as Clerics they're not particularly better than anyone else...

 

[Crothian]

"Historically", the AD&D 1e Elf got (IIRC) +1 INT & DEX, and -1 CON. Thus, in 3.xe, you would expect him to have +2 INT... but he doesn't. +2 INT would probably make Elves the best "Wizii".

1e elf from the PHB got +1 Dex, -1 Con

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I have no problem with this whatsoever. Any race that is one of the worst choices (if not the worst) for it's "favored class" has a serious problem.

Frankly, even with an Int bonus instead of Dex (gray elf), the elf is still a poor wizard. Sure, he gets more spells and they're better, but he still dies at the drop of a hat. I'll take a gnome over a gray elf for wizarding purposes any day.

 

[MerricB]

I have no problem with this whatsoever. Any race that is one of the worst choices (if not the worst) for it's "favored class" has a serious problem.

Frankly, even with an Int bonus instead of Dex (gray elf), the elf is still a poor wizard. Sure, he gets more spells and they're better, but he still dies at the drop of a hat. I'll take a gnome over a gray elf for wizarding purposes any day.

Actually, the Gray Elf is +2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con.

Cheers!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Actually, the Gray Elf is +2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con.

Cheers!

But the Sun Elf in FR is +2 Int, -2 Con, right?

The Gray Elf does get two beneficial stats (Int and Dex) at the cost of only one (Con), so that's a spiffy deal. On the other hand, he loses what I would consider the most important stat, and doesn't get the assorted bonuses a halfling or gnome would, so he's probably at most a little better than them.

 

[MerricB]

But the Sun Elf in FR is +2 Int, -2 Con, right?

The Gray Elf does get two beneficial stats (Int and Dex) at the cost of only one (Con), so that's a spiffy deal. On the other hand, he loses what I would consider the most important stat, and doesn't get the assorted bonuses a halfling or gnome would, so he's probably at most a little better than them.

Right - err... Gray Elf loses Str and Con.

Must say, I don't like losing Strength.

Cheers!

 

[Numion]

Andy is correct, IMO. In my past campaigns there's been a lot of halfling blasters. It seems that my players agree that the halfling is the best mage - they don't play halflings for anything else :\

 

[beaver1024]

Gray Elves are in the core rules now? That must be new as none of my PHBs has them.

Most books just look at the core rules for balance. Sun elfs which are not core might interact with other non cores they were not meant to react with and become unblancing. I doubt that is the case here but I havn't seen exactly what these things are and what is lost compaired to what is gained.

Gray Elves are in the MM.

The "penalty" that Generalist Elf Wizard gives up is inability to specialise and have to be elf. Whoop de doo.

In 3.0, Greater Spell Focus (non-core), Red Wizard (non-core) , and Archmage (non-core) interacted to produce irresitable spell DCs. Yet somehow these non-core materials were used as justification to alter core material, Spell Focus nerf and general arcane spell nerf, that necessitated 3.5.

 

[Crothian]

Gray Elves are in the MM.

Well, if we include them we'd have to include everything in there with ecls as core player races which they really aren't since they aren't in the players book.

 

[takyris]

Really, if you want your elves to be more Tolkienien and magical, the easiest thing to do is to just assume that the default elf has 3 levels of wizard right off the bat. That gives them a few more hit points, so they seem a bit harder to kill, and minor spell ability.

I think that the lack of Int bonus for the elves was because they were afraid of giving any racial bonus to a spellcasting ability score. After a few years of this version, I'm not sure how unbalancing that would be, but then, I haven't played in a wide enough range of games with enough minmaxed PrC stuff to really see DCs get crazy.