D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Remathilis]

Slippery slope arguments are not compelling.

Depends on the slopes angle. I mean, I'm sure it won't stop the sales of every D&D product, but it could lead to more. OA is not the only potentially problematic title in the catalogue, and if Wizards removes OA due to public pressure, it would be obligated to remove others. That could mean the whole Kara-Tur line, or Al-Qadim, or Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani. Or it could even mean the 1e core books themselves, seeing how many of the problematic language and art got it's start there.

It doesn't create a slippery slope, it sets a prescident that can be applied to later works if they too create enough ire.

 

[Panda-s1]

Depends on the slopes angle. I mean, I'm sure it won't stop the sales of every D&D product, but it could lead to more. OA is not the only potentially problematic title in the catalogue, and if Wizards removes OA due to public pressure, it would be obligated to remove others. That could mean the whole Kara-Tur line, or Al-Qadim, or Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani. Or it could even mean the 1e core books themselves, seeing how many of the problematic language and art got it's start there.

It doesn't create a slippery slope, it sets a prescident that can be applied to later works if they too create enough ire.

man, what does this say about the history of D&D? :U

That was literally the last line of my first post that you replied to. Talk about conveniently missing stuff out.

okay fine, but I still stand by what I say: even asking the first time might be rude to some people. maybe you can reevaluate whether or not this should be typical? is there some huge incalculable loss to you if you can't?

on a personal note: I'll be honest, I don't ask this unless somebody firmly establishes they're not from around here. for me it's a little too presumptive to assume someone isn't local, even if they have a foreign accent. if they bring it up, like "back where I'm from" or "when I moved here", then I'll ask.

 

[Remathilis]

man, what does this say about the history of D&D? :U

Considering this is the second time you've said this to me, why don't YOU tell me what it says about the history of D&D?

 

[Panda-s1]

Considering this is the second time you've said this to me, why don't YOU tell me what it says about the history of D&D?

old D&D books have a lot of cultural and racist baggage and we should probably seriously assess the necessity of WotC selling these books for a profit.

 

[Remathilis]

old D&D books have a lot of cultural and racist baggage and we should probably seriously assess the necessity of WotC selling these books for a profit.

old Doctor Who episodess have a lot of cultural and racist baggage and we should probably seriously assess the necessity of BBC selling these episodes for a profit.

old Superman comics have a lot of cultural and racist baggage and we should probably seriously assess the necessity of DC selling these comics for a profit.

old Rolling Stones albums have a lot of cultural and racist baggage and we should probably seriously assess the necessity of Universal Media selling these albums for a profit.

...

 

[Umbran]

Given your bona fides, I see no point in continuing this.

Are you the sort of authoritarian ...

Mod Note:

Both of you are making this about the speakers, so you can dismiss them. This is ad hominem, and rude, and reduces the discussion to a form of name-calling. Stop it.

Address the content of the post, not the person of the poster, please and thank you.

 

[Aldarc]

It would not be the worst thing in the world for companies to seriously assess the content from which they derive profits.

 

[Neonchameleon]

old Doctor Who episodess have a lot of cultural and racist baggage and we should probably seriously assess the necessity of BBC selling these episodes for a profit.

old Superman comics have a lot of cultural and racist baggage and we should probably seriously assess the necessity of DC selling these comics for a profit.

old Rolling Stones albums have a lot of cultural and racist baggage and we should probably seriously assess the necessity of Universal Media selling these albums for a profit.

...

And then make an affirmative case for why those specific individual episodes, songs, and albums are ones that are problematic.

With Oriental Adventures the case is obvious and affirmative. The problem starts with the title. Oriental itself is a can of worms, both normally used in a racist manner and covering such a huge range of distance and time that it's spread impossibly thin. Once we've started with the title being a problem the question is whether (as in the case of Agatha Christie's "And then there were none") a simple title change and very faint bowdlerisation will prevent the wrongness overwhelming the good parts while keeping literally everything of worth.

There's also the issue that we run into in the case of the monumentally racist Birth of a Nation that it really is, regrettably, a foundational work in cinema history. That's its own conversation.

 

[Eric V]

It would not be the worst thing in the world for companies to seriously assess the content from which they derive profits.

Seriously.

People just aren't getting the difference between a manual like OA versus Tom Sawyer or some other book. The latter is a book one simply reads; that's the expected level of engagement with the book. It can contain bigoted aspects, but one needn't personally engage them.

A book like OA for a role-playing game is different. It's an instruction manual, written by white North Americans, on how to pretend to be East Asians in a group of (predominantly) fellow white North Americans. In a fantasy setting, sure, but "fantasy setting" does nothing to address the stereotypes.

It's baffling to me that people don't see this as problematic. It's hard to come up with an equivalent experience for myself, but I imagine that if someone came up with "Catholic Adventures" and there were rules about the ubiquity of Latin, casting stigmata, and all sorts of other tropes, and I found out that Roman Catholics weren't consulted on such a book...it'd be weird. The idea that there's a book out there giving instruction on how to pretend to be what I am (in this case, Roman Catholic; for East Asians, OA) and nobody with the lived experience was consulted...yeah.

It's not a perfect example, by any stretch, because as someone who has benefited from white privelege all my life I can't come up with an equivalent personal example...but the broad strokes are similar enough, I hope.

 

[Umbran]

That italicized part? That's how you reveal yourself. Thanks for finally being honest.

Mod Note:

DON'T MAKE IT PERSONAL. Address your commentary to the content of the post, not the person or character of the poster, please and thank you.

What did I reveal about myself? Its called a joke.

If your attempt at humor flopped, and got read as you didn't intend it, own it and move on. Trying to defend it like that makes you sound like all the sexists, racists, and abusers in the world who try to cover for their abusive words that way.