D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Haldrik]

We have laws to punish the actions. The actions should not ever be allowed without harsh punishment. The beliefs and words must be allowed or free speech doesn't exist. We don't have to like it, and we can use our speech to counter and revile it.


I still don't buy that. And I am Jewish and have experienced the anti-semitism.

Hatespeech itself requires laws.

We have active moderators on ENWorld who punish hatespeech.

Because. The hatespeech itself is immediately harmful.



Freespeech is the opposite of hatespeech.

Conversations require RECIPROCITY. Mutual respect.

Freespeech is an AGREEMENT among all speakers who are participating in the conversation.

Just like a physical mugger can be physically incarcerated, a speech mugger can be silenced.

Benign censorship happens all the time. There is nothing magical about people yelling in each others faces or making death threats or convincing people that other people dont deserve to live. Thank goodness for legitimate violence (police) and for legitimate censorship. It saves lives.



I get it. American classic liberalism has championed simplistic notions about free speech − and many good things have happened in that effort. I benefit from it. But today, that kind of liberal is aging and decreasing in numbers. Also, that simplistic notion has failed in the face of the proliferation of hatespeech across the internet. Plus, historically, democracy and free speech require self-defense to survive.

We need a more sophisticated model of freespeech.



Being Jewish, to guard against Lashon Ha Ra is a high priority.

 

[Catolias]

Hatespeech itself requires laws.

We have active moderators on ENWorld who punish hatespeech.

Because. The hatespeech itself is immediately harmful.



Freespeech is the opposite of hatespeech.

Conversations require RECIPROCITY. Mutual respect.

Freespeech is an AGREEMENT among all speakers who are participating in the conversation.

Just like a physical mugger can be physically incarcerated, a speech mugger can be silenced.

Benign censorship happens all the time. There is nothing magical about people yelling in each others faces or making death threats or convincing people that other people dont deserve to live. Thank goodness for legitimate violence (police) and for legitimate censorship. It saves lives.



I get it. American classic liberalism has championed simplistic notions about free speech − and many good things have happened in that effort. I benefit from it. But today, that kind of liberal is aging and decreasing in numbers. Also, that simplistic notion has failed in the face of the proliferation of hatespeech across the internet. Plus, historically, democracy and free speech require self-defense to survive.

We need a more sophisticated model of freespeech.



Being Jewish, to guard against Lashon Ha Ra is a high priority.

Totally agree. Too often people claim they have rights but conveniently forget that, with those rights, come responsibilities.

 

[Maxperson]

Hatespeech itself requires laws.

We have active moderators on ENWorld who punish hatespeech.

Because. The hatespeech itself is immediately harmful.

This is an opinion, and one which I don't agree with. It also completely eliminates free speech and sooner or later, speech you agree with will be banned by someone else for some other reason. For speech to be free, it has to allow even speech you find offensive.

Freespeech is the opposite of hatespeech.

This is completely and utterly false.

Freespeech is an AGREEMENT among all speakers who are participating in the conversation.

This is also completely and utterly false. I don't need you or anyone else in conversation. I can be just announcing my opinions.

Just like a physical mugger can be physically incarcerated, a speech mugger can be silenced.

And this is a False Equivalence. Speech =/= physical assault.

We need a more sophisticated model of freespeech.

One that apparently lacks free speech.

 

[Mecheon]

This is also completely and utterly false. I don't need you or anyone else in conversation. I can be just announcing my opinions.

You're in a forum. You've come into a conversation someone else started and engaged in it, that's why they're called "Topics"

If you just want to announce opinions, that's what blogs are for. But by announcing it, you're inviting other people to judge your opinion.

 

[Maxperson]

You're in a forum. You've come into a conversation someone else started and engaged in it, that's why they're called "Topics"

Apparently you haven't followed the conversation. We're discussing speech in general, not this particular discussion

If you just want to announce opinions, that's what blogs are for. But by announcing it, you're inviting other people to judge your opinion.

Sure. That's just one way in which you can engage in free speech without there being a conversation or agreement involved.

 

[Haldrik]

This is an opinion, and one which I don't agree with. It also completely eliminates free speech and sooner or later, speech you agree with will be banned by someone else for some other reason. For speech to be free, it has to allow even speech you find offensive.



This is completely and utterly false.



This is also completely and utterly false. I don't need you or anyone else in conversation. I can be just announcing my opinions.



And this is a False Equivalence. Speech =/= physical assault.



One that apparently lacks free speech.

I can do whatever I want with my hands − except punch people in the face.

I can do whatever I want with my mouth − except make death threats.

Totally agree. Too often people claim they have rights but conveniently forget that, with those rights, come responsibilities.

Well said.

Legal rights INCLUDE legal responsibilities.

 

[Haldrik]

For example.

Unlike other formulations of the Golden Rule, this formulation is enforceable.

"Something that is hateful against you, you will not do to your partner."

To do something hateful is punishable.

Also, it involves partnership, a mutual agreement to look out for each other. Responsibilities to each other. Reciprocity.

This legal principle is legally practicable.

As such, it is a more robust foundation for legal human rights − that are enforceable. It is a more sophisticated formulation of human rights.

Freespeech is a social contract among speakers in a conversation. Reciprocity.

Do not do hatespeech.

Humanity has a legal basic human right to be free from hatespeech, including death threats.

 

[Panda-s1]

Would several sentences discussing the "Five Grains" and noting some more cultural differences between the north and south in terms of wheat vs. rice have saved that excerpt?

no.

They did have a disclaimer at the front of the section on Daily Life in Kara-Tur that this wasn't designed to accurately describe the real East Asia in all it's variety. It's not a fix, but it seems important to note that they weren't trying to describe it all with perfect accuracy - and they wanted the readers to be aware of that.

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okay it sounds like they shot themselves in the foot by describing rice as the most important food in Kara-Tur that is eaten with virtually every meal.

For those without a copy of OA, food is the subject of an entire half page:
Paragraph 2 spends a lot of time on Soybeans
Paragraph 3 is on various vegetables
Paragraph 5 is on seafood
Paragraph 6 is on non-seafood meats
Paragraph 7 is on tea
Paragraph 8 describes a set of typical daily meals

Well, it isn't accurate as a description of asian cuisine. But it also doesn't seem evil to me to have an asian inspired setting where rice is that kind of staple. It is just a big simplification, probably because they were basing the food section on limited sources, or a focused region.

both of you missed the tone of the writing here. first of all, unpacking a greeting to describe the importance of rice? even a kindergartner can tell you "hello" in Mandarin in "ni hao". this is conflated by the fact that in some languages "rice" a word used colloquially to mean all food, even if you don't eat rice. this is a greeting someone might use in China, but just like anywhere there's a variety of greetings they use. but about tone, let's imagine if we wrote about English greetings that way:

In America and Canada, people do not greet each other with the friendly "Ni hao!" of the East, instead saying "Good morning!" or "Good evening!" depending on the time of day. The intention is the same, but the importance of the time of day in daily life is clear.

seriously, the way that paragraph is written makes it sound like Americans never heard of rice before. or that it has a multitude of uses.

Rice is used in a multitude of ways. It is boiled and served with butter. It is puffed, sweetened and prepared by pouring over it with milk. It is cooked in a broth and served in a side dish. Left over rice is mixed with vegetables in a dish called stir fried rice, that's similar to the kind you may be familiar with because Chinese people have been living in America and Canada for nigh over a goddamn century.

also I'm tired of doing the heavy lifting as the only Asian person in this echo chamber.

here's a twitter thread by a Malaysian journalist (in Kuala Lumpur) talking about the way durians are discussed in western journalism. this sort of writing about Asian food still happens and isn't just an issue that's gotten better since 1985.

or the more humorous take that I tried to crib.

 

[Maxperson]

I can do whatever I want with my hands − except punch people in the face.

I can do whatever I want with my mouth − except make death threats.

Hate speech does not equal death threats or punches in the face. Nobody is advocating that deaths threats or physical violence be okay.

 

[Campbell]

I have watched the first couple hours of the Asians Represent read-through of Oriental Adventures. I pretty much agree with all his commentary so far. I think we are part of a hobby that includes an unfortunate history of erasing, essentializing, and misrepresenting people of color, LGBTQ people, and other marginalized groups. I think Oriental Adventures is most likely poor speech.

I still do not like the censorious impulses I am seeing here and have seen to things like Exalted Third Edition including a trans man on the cover or the recent inclusion of emotional safety techniques in mainstream roleplaying games. I understand that this is a moment to address racial inequity and the lack of social consciousness in the game that practically defines our hobby. It is something that is really important to me.

My larger fear is that this censorious impulse just becomes mainstream. My worry is that we will become afraid to push boundaries and potentially transgressive games like Sorcerer, Dos in the Vineyard, My Life With Master, Monsterhearts, Night Witches, etc. will not have a place. A shared commitment to a liberal society helps to protect the stuff that I believe moves the needle of society in a good way. More importantly it brings us all to the conversation.

I am a firm believer that the best cure for poor speech is scrutiny and better speech. I also have some genuine concerns about us giving power to institutions that do not have our best interests at heart no matter how well meaning their designers may be.