D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

Identity is partly a choice, partly situational, and partly perceptional.

If you think of being American as part of who you are it is part of your identity. It can be a bigger or smaller part of your identity it is not fixed by just being American. It is perfectly logical to be an American who does not identify as an American, it can be an insignificant consideration for them and their conception of their identity.

Then you do not identify as a teacher, it is a job for you and not how you identify yourself. Others do take being a teacher as a significant part of their identity. Someone who identifies as a teacher still thinks of themselves as such if they lose their job, they still approach life in some ways as a teacher.

Thanks for responding. I appreciate it : )

I don't really understand, still. But I think I've derailed the thread enough, so I'll give it a rest.

If anyone has an answer, or any reading material, I'd love a DM.

The two areas that puzzle me most. 1) In the statement "I identify as American," what the essence of the American-ness I am identifying as is. 2) The relationship and contrast between identifying and being.
 

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Hussar

Legend
This won't satisfy the academics but its a game book and it would make actual buyers happy in a low offense way and sell like hotcakes.

Is there anything I've written that makes you think I disagree with this? If a new OA was as "about as authentically Asian as the Avatar the Last Airbender " I'd be happy as a clam. Now, imagine that we rewrite Avatar the Last Airbender, using nothing but Japanese naming conventions, adding in ninjas, samurai, and so on, exclusively. The background art must be changed to only be Japanese aesthetics, no art from any other culture. Any of the "monsters" in the show and all of the concepts must be pulled from Japanese mythology and stories.

Do you still want to watch that show?
 

Hussar

Legend
Thanks for responding. I appreciate it : )

I don't really understand, still. But I think I've derailed the thread enough, so I'll give it a rest.

If anyone has an answer, or any reading material, I'd love a DM.

The two areas that puzzle me most. 1) In the statement "I identify as American," what the essence of the American-ness I am identifying as is. 2) The relationship and contrast between identifying and being.

To be fair bud, these are fascinating questions and there are entire dissertations written on the subject. And, it's a subject that is constantly evolving as well. If you think TV Tropes is a deep dark hole for your time, give this one a try. :D
 

Ace

Adventurer
Is there anything I've written that makes you think I disagree with this? If a new OA was as "about as authentically Asian as the Avatar the Last Airbender " I'd be happy as a clam. Now, imagine that we rewrite Avatar the Last Airbender, using nothing but Japanese naming conventions, adding in ninjas, samurai, and so on, exclusively. The background art must be changed to only be Japanese aesthetics, no art from any other culture. Any of the "monsters" in the show and all of the concepts must be pulled from Japanese mythology and stories.

Do you still want to watch that show?

I don't watch Avatar much so I can't say for certain but if you renamed the show Shukenja and made it about D&D style "Japanese" note the quotes elemental casters, I'll be you could make a pretty good show. Sort of Avatar meets Inuyasha.

However what matter is "what will sell" all else is secondary and if putting a heavy focus onto Japan works than it works. Inclusiveness and cultural nuance is kind of a luxury. Real life is sales forward

Now if gaming audiences want more of inclusion and nuance , I'm all in. More fidelity, good options and cool stuff means more fun.

You can also roll your own 5E stuff so if you don't like what you see, make something better. Get a crew with the lore you need and kickstart that mofo.

I will say the market does provide options already, innumerable Wuxia RPG's , Tadhana' for Filipino adventures, against the Dark Yogi for India and some African themed RPG's as well. Its all there ready to be used if your group is into it,

Complaining especially about old ideas in an option rich ecosystem just seems absurd to me.
 

Somes things may be wrong, but unintentionally, without bad intentions, but another times there are serious reasons to feel ofensed.

Let's use as example the Simpsons cartoon show. One of the episodes was set in Barcelona, Spain, showing a wrong image of Spain. Wrong, but not true "Hispanophobia". But a different thing is in other chapter where Spanish soccer team brided a referee. That was a true offense because the hidden message was Spain didn't win the 2010 FIFA world cup because we were the best team, but we paid enough money, and then it was a victory without true glory, without any merit.

And I doubt positive stereotypes may be annoying. A example of positive trope is the daishing hispanic and I thik it has got a piece of truth because our facial traits are softer thanks our (relatively) mixed blood.

* I miss more variety of humanoid races in Asian fantasy.

* In my own home game I can talk about the smash sparrow campaign for the four pests campaign and the ecological disaster what it caused, but to publish it in internet may cause troubles, and not in Taiwan or Hong-Kong. I am afraid there are some risks if I want to publish fantasy based in Chinese culture and not in Korean or Japanese. A Vietnamese player could publish in DM Guild a setting based in her own culture, in a fantasy realm being invaded by aliens. If somebody notices those aliens aren't an allegory of the French colonialist but Chinese dictatorship somebody may be annoyed
 

oriaxx77

Explorer
I mean, I do appreciate you actually went and asked people who might be affected by the stuff presented in OA what their opinions were. this is certainly better than using weirdly broad statements like most Asians don't care to dismiss anything Kwan has said.

though if it's true that those people are some of the few Asian people credited in an official D&D publication then I find that very sad. it's sad that a book called "Oriental Adventures" with some dated and bad stereotypes of Asian culture is the only time D&D had any noticeable input by the actual people the book is supposed to be about. there should be more Asian creators (well creators all colors really) involved in D&D, and not just when they need to make an Asian fantasy product.

also speaking of Kwan, I think it needs to be reiterated: no matter what you make of his opinion on OA, I still feel his argument about removal is true: it's hypocritical for WotC to say they're going to be more culturally sensitive but still sell a book like that for profit.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, those people listed all have Japanese names. it feels like TSR kinda just half-assed their attempt at getting advice from actual Asian experts and only got consultation on the Japanese portion of the book, and I hope to god none of those are aliases of "experts" on Japanese culture. I'm certain they could have at least done the same for getting advice on Chinese culture. I know they list a bibliography of sources in the book, but... idk older Western books about East Asia also tend to have weird and dated ideas about cultures as well. I also have to think about the more obscure cultures they bring up in this book probably don't have a good foundation, like Vietnam? considering it's history with the west and the fact it was virtually cut off with the rest of the world at the time I can only imagine the books available to them were 1) scant and 2) not great.
Other products use European names and the context is not accurate. The author is not European. Should I be offended? It is fantasy so anything is possible.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Other products use European names and the context is not accurate. The author is not European. Should I be offended? It is fantasy so anything is possible.

There's no "should" here. And "offended" is a loaded term that suggests a misunderstanding of what's going on.

But if there are portrayals of European culture that make you feel like you're not really welcome in the D&D community, and it makes you not want to play the game, I want to hear about it. There's no element of the game that is so sacred to me that I wouldn't be willing to change it in order to make more people feel welcome.

I would want to understand why, of course. If one person said, "I find elves offensive" I wouldn't just jump on the bandwagon to abolish them. But if that person can explain what's going on with the elf thing, I'd like to learn about it. Maybe I've just been comfortably oblivious as a white American male one percenter. I'm not ready (yet?) to give up some of my lovely but deeply unfair economic advantages, but literally the very, very least I can do is support changes to a fantasy roleplaying game.
 
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MGibster

Legend
Let's use as example the Simpsons cartoon show. One of the episodes was set in Barcelona, Spain, showing a wrong image of Spain. Wrong, but not true "Hispanophobia". But a different thing is in other chapter where Spanish soccer team brided a referee. That was a true offense because the hidden message was Spain didn't win the 2010 FIFA world cup because we were the best team, but we paid enough money, and then it was a victory without true glory, without any merit.

I wouldn't call that a hidden message so much as direct and in your face joke. And such a joke could be made here in the United States about the New York Yankees, the Dallas Cowboys, or the 1996 Women's Olympics Gymnastic team and it's unlikely many people would have been offended by it.
 

"Can't you take a joke?" are ones of the typical words by psychological abusers when potential victims dare to face them.

It doesn't matter about if your conscience to be clear because you tried to be fair and polite. If you do something what bother or hurt others you will have to face the consequences. And in the enternaiment industry the love or trust by the public is too important to risks to offend them.


 

It doesn't matter about if your conscience to be clear because you tried to be fair and polite. If you do something what bother or hurt others you will have to face the consequences. And in the enternaiment industry the love or trust by the public is too important to risks to offend them.

What is the correct course of action when two mutually exclusive opinions (with no middle group), both dearly held, are offensive to the opposing group?

(I would name some, but I'm worried about bringing politics into the thread.)
 

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