D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[MGibster]

"Can't you take a joke?" are ones of the typical words by psychological abusers when potential victims dare to face them.

The idea that this joke approaches anything resembling psychological abuse is ludicrous. When I brought this up it wasn't to suggest that you shouldn't or couldn't be offended by the joke, but instead to point out that there's a cultural difference in that most Americans would not find that joke to be offensive even if directed at one of our teams.

It doesn't matter about if your conscience to be clear because you tried to be fair and polite. If you do something what bother or hurt others you will have to face the consequences. And in the enternaiment industry the love or trust by the public is too important to risks to offend them.

That's fair. But the episode came out in 2014 so I don't think the consequences were all that dire in this case.

 

[Guest 6801328]

The idea that this joke approaches anything resembling psychological abuse is ludicrous. When I brought this up it wasn't to suggest that you shouldn't or couldn't be offended by the joke, but instead to point out that there's a cultural difference in that most Americans would not find that joke to be offensive even if directed at one of our teams.

Honestly I'm so dumbfounded that anybody would think the sports team analogy is in any way applicable that I've struggled to know how to even respond.

But I guess that if one were to think that it actually is a good analogy, it would make sense to also think that these issues of cultural sensitivity (OA, orcs, etc.) are overblown.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Just saw this article. Read this, and then ask yourself how it would feel to those Koreans who are even aware of this history to have a mostly Japanese culture presented as if it is representative of all Asian cultures.

My Family’s Shrouded History Is Also a National One for Korea

 

[MGibster]

Just saw this article. Read this, and then ask yourself how it would feel to those Koreans who are even aware of this history to have a mostly Japanese culture presented as if it is representative of all Asian cultures.

I believe there are many valid criticisms of OA, but I find this one to be the most compelling.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I believe there are many valid criticisms of OA, but I find this one to be the most compelling.

I agree.

And then I think that just today...literally today...I learned about this part of Korea's past.

What else don't I know about history that is relevant to the OA discussion?

 

[Hussar]

Other products use European names and the context is not accurate. The author is not European. Should I be offended? It is fantasy so anything is possible.

I don't know. Should you be?

Is the use of European names somehow derogatory or denigrating to groups of people in some specifically definable way? Can you tell me, specifically, what is offensive about the use of those words, within the context of how they are being used in the game?

No?

Then, no, you shouldn't be offended. There's nothing to be offended about.

OTOH, I've presented SPECIFICALLY what the problem is with Oriental Adventures. I'm not using vague language and pretending that I'm somehow saying something that is furthering the conversation. My specific problem with OA is that it claims to be a setting guide covering multiple cultures that uses a single culture (Japanese) to stand for all of the other cultures that are meant to be present. This is offensive for two reasons. One, the historical reason where Imperial Japan attempted the forced assimilation of both Korea and China using EXACTLY this same approach - all things Chinese or Korean were replaced by all things Japanese, and, secondly, because this mirrors the American and Western views that Japan is the only culture that matters in the East and everything else can be simply ignored - what difference does it make, they all look the same goes the argument.

So, for the slow of reading, because I am so sick and bloody tired of this same sort of crap being brought up over and over again. If you cannot be specific and point to exactly why something is offensive when you are claiming offense, then, in all likelihood, you are simply trolling the topic in hopes of derailing conversation down yet another semantic rabbit hole. In other words, if you cannot be specific, then it is up to you to either find a way to be specific, or step back, do some reading, get a bit of education in the issue.

 

[Hussar]

I agree.

And then I think that just today...literally today...I learned about this part of Korea's past.

What else don't I know about history that is relevant to the OA discussion?

Not to be a dick here, but, this is precisely what I've been pointing to since I got into this thread. And it's why I get so annoyed in these conversations. Not at you @Elfcrusher because, well, you did your due diligence. You actually took the time to look at the specifics of why a book like this would be offensive and realized, oh yeah, that's pretty damn offensive.

But, THIRTY FIVE PAGES into this thread, hundreds of posts, and we STILL have to explain to people like @oriaxx77 what the problem is. It is so freaking frustrating to make the point, present the evidence, and then be completely ignored by people who obviously have zero background in the issue. I've been banging my head on this wall for twenty freaking years (Oh, it's just a dog, why can't we have a dog in the bedroom in our children's textbook? Well, because not every culture in the world allows pets in the bedroom and some cultures see that as disgusting. Do you want to sell your book in those countries to help pay off your mortgage? Then change the bloody picture and learn a little bit about other cultures before you write English textbooks for those cultures.)

Ahem. Sorry, might have gone on a bit of a tangent there.

Look, boys and girls it's simple. When someone gives you specific reasons why X is offensive, your first reaction should NEVER be, "oh, well that's just manufactured offense". If you don't know why X is offensive, LEARN. Do not presume, in your ignorance, that other people are just as ignorant of history and culture as you are and that they are just attention seeking. These are real issues. These things MATTER. They might not be important to you, or me, or Bob down the street. But, they are important to someone.

And it costs you nothing to learn why.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

We know OA was a cultural chop suey of Asian cultures, but D&D also does the same one with the European cultures, and you see stories with monsters from different folklores and mythologies (Nordic, Irish, Greek). It was not a wrong step, but only incomplete, the first one.

People and societies are changing. For example Apu in the Simpsons isn't tolerated any more because he is not politically correct. Do you remember the old movies of "our gang/the litle rascal"? The first show where white and blackamerican children were together as equals, but today any people don't like any racial esteotypes.

* My suggestion is to offer some "pieces" , publish in the open licence races and monsters based in the Asian cultures, and then the own Asian authors will use this OA mythology to publish their own stories, for example Korean webtoons. Hasbro should talk with Toei Animation, Tecent (a Chinese company) and NCSoft (S-Korea) as cultural consultants.

* Japanese cultural influence by speculative fiction (manga+anime) is stonger because they have been producing anime for decades ago. Only now we start to know Chinese and Korean speculative fiction. If they want to make money in the Western market they will need some piece of diplomatic skills

* My fear is the fiction could be used by the Asian authors to show stereotypes against their own neighbour countries.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Not to be a dick here, but, this is precisely what I've been pointing to since I got into this thread. And it's why I get so annoyed in these conversations. Not at you @Elfcrusher because, well, you did your due diligence. You actually took the time to look at the specifics of why a book like this would be offensive and realized, oh yeah, that's pretty damn offensive.

Well, I wasn't really doing due diligence. I already knew where I fall in this debate. (Full disclosure: I read it because I know the author, and then thought, "Whoah! This is SO relevant to that debate on Enworld...")

But the real lesson here is that we don't know what we don't know. When somebody says something like "OA is culturally offensive" and we don't immediately see why that is true, our reaction to the claim speaks volumes:

Do we assume that since we don't see it, it's nonsense, and that therefore the person with the complaint is making stuff up? And, furthermore, this is a perfect example of how people are making up non-existent problems just to grab attention and make things difficult for the rest of us?

Or do we think, with humility, that perhaps there's background we don't know, and that before we start spouting off about what other people should be bothered by, we should ask a lot of questions?

The interesting thing about the article I linked is that the author himself was totally unaware of this history for most of his life. So if earlier in his life you asked him about OA he might have not thought it was a big deal, or even funny. And it would be easy to use that younger version of him as evidence that Asian-Americans don't have to be offended by OA, and that therefore those who are offended are choosing to be, or making a mountain out of molehill.

When what it would really show is that not all members of a demographic group are aware of the history and context of their own group.

 

[Hussar]

Oh. For sure. And, frankly, that's where the cultural consultants come into play. It's their job to know what's going to be problematic, and, IME, they're typically pretty good at it.

Going through and editing ESL textbooks for a new edition has been such a MASSIVE eye opening experience about what passes without second thought simply because of a person's background. I wrote upthread about having a dog in a bedroom. I mean, to me, there's not offensive or off putting about that at all. Everyone lets their pets into their bedroom, right? Well, apparently, no, there are a number of cultures out there that find that notion disgusting. It's dirty and not something you would expect to see in a book geared for teaching children.

So, how do we fix it? Well, we get out our magic eraser, scrub out the dog, and move on. And 99% of the time, that's all it takes. All these cries of "CENSORSHIP" and "ORWELLIAN NIGHTMARE" are largely ignorant fear mongering. It's something that we do in books all the time and have done so since the first editor was born. We want to sell books. So, we make those books as appealing to as many people as possible. Odds are, no one cares that the dog is gone out of the book. It was just a part of the illustration. But, if we leave the dog in there, there are certain places we can't sell our books.

So, poof, Rover disappears.

Could we fix OA in the same way? No, not really. There is just too much that would have to be changed. You'd be better off rewriting the whole thing, giving a more balanced view of the region. So, don't use language specific names - except maybe as examples. So, a class might be "Fighter" with examples like Samurai, Mongol horse archer, etc. Equipment might list "Longsword, example: Katana, Dao, etc. Anyway, I'm not a scholar, but, you get my point. Make sure that you give fairly equal air time to all the cultures that you are supposed to be representing, and things go a lot better.