D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Imaculata]

When somebody says something like "OA is culturally offensive" and we don't immediately see why that is true, our reaction to the claim speaks volumes:

Do we assume that since we don't see it, it's nonsense, and that therefore the person with the complaint is making stuff up? And, furthermore, this is a perfect example of how people are making up non-existent problems just to grab attention and make things difficult for the rest of us?

Or do we think, with humility, that perhaps there's background we don't know, and that before we start spouting off about what other people should be bothered by, we should ask a lot of questions?

One of the reactions that I see quite often, and which always enfuriates me, is when people then manifacture offense themselves, in order to defend the offensive material.

Like for example, one person says Oriental Adventures is offensive, and then someone else says: "Well, standard D&D is a hotchpotch of European cultures, so maybe I'm offended by that as well!"

No you are not. THAT is manufactured offense and it is a dishonest argument. It is a blatant refusal to understand another person's point of view. We do need a bit of humility here. We need to honestly admit when we don't know why something is offensive, and then try to understand why.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I understand somebody authors and writters have got the right to say painful truths, but my own opinion is if you really want to convince then don't force others to agree you or they will not trust you and they will not want to keep listening you, but you need more diplomacy. Worse it's when the rest suspects you are using a double standar, talking about the sins by ones but being quiet about the bad actions by others.

D&D settings based in no-Western societies should be an open gate to introduce those cultures. Asian comic publishers could, should, use the OA mythology to promote their own titles in the Western market.

Maybe OA is not enough politically correct for 2020 standars, but it was published in the 80's they never wanted to offend the Asians. Maybe a mistake, but without bad intentions. To say "this is not wrong" is not enough, we have to explain how should be the right path. Why not to publish D&D version of humanoid races and monsters based in Asia-but-not-Japanese folklore? And to publish some articles about how to write wuxia fiction avoiding annoying stereotypes.

* Even different authors from the same country may opposite points of view about their own country and its History. These different opinions showed in the games could cause troubles and controversies. How to explain it with an (almost) innocent example. Two Texans tellings stories of indians & cowboys, in one the cowboys are the good guys and the redskins the villains antagonists but the other will tell an opposite story where the indians are the victims by the evil cowboys.

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[Imaculata]

To me the biggest failure of Oriental Adventures, is how it neglects to include the wealth of material from other Asian cultures. Its not just that it is offensive to some people, but that it mostly concerns itself with popular Japanese tropes (in other words, cliches, things that are overdone in other media). But there is a wealth of material out there that is largely unknown to a lot of people. There is so much wonderful Asian lore out there; a treasure trove of material.

Korea has a very interesting history in regards to ancient warfare. One of my favourites bits of trivia are the Korean Turtle Ships: Armored warships covered in spikes, with a dragon figurehead that could double as a cannon, flamethrower, or emit poisonous fumes. How has that not made it into a D&D book yet?

Filipino folklore is full of amazing monsters, many of which could easily be used to fill a Monster Manual. I'm a big fan of the Aswang, for example. A vampire-like creature with a long tongue which it uses to drink blood/viscera.
Or the Manananggal, which separates its body in two. Pathfinder even has a miniature of the Penanggalen, which is similar to the Mananangal, and also found in folklore from Sabah, Bali, Kalimantan, West Sumatra, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand. These are wonderful monsters that I would love to see in an Asian themed D&D book.

 

[Hussar]

I don't know, removing a dog from a text book in the manner you describe sounds just like the type of censorship you encounter in countries where you have religious laws for example that prohibit showing hair. There is something quite Orwellian about removing a dog, when the purpose of the book is to teach people who are coming to a culture where a dog in the bedroom is normal. Shouldn't this be something they are exposed to so they know what to expect?

Would you have drawn pictures of naked children in your children's books? That's quite acceptable here in Japan. It would go over like a lead balloon in an American market. An illustration of a young boy or girl peeing, complete with anatomically correct illustrations? Yeah, not going to happen.

You don't get to say why someone else doesn't want particular illustrations or images or descriptions. EVERY culture draws the line somewhere. Things that are perfectly acceptable in one culture (completely open bathrooms with no doors in public schools) and totally unacceptable in another. This how what it means to be sensitive to other cultures. You don't sit back on your pedestal and proclaim that all and sundry MUST ACCEPT whatever you spew forth. Instead, you accept that other cultures have differing norms to your culture and act accordingly. You can raise the flag of "censorship" all you like, but, all it shows is hypocrisy at the end of the day.

 

[Imaculata]

I think the best thing we can do, is to look at the original goal of Oriental Adventures (To add Asian fantasy into the mix), and to do a better job at it. Changing the book that is already out, is a wasted effort, and would be nearly impossible without completely rewriting it.

Release a new book that does a better job, for 5e. Include all that folklore from other Asian countries that was left out of OA, and also change the name to something that isn't offensive. Instead of filling it with mostly Japanese tropes, fill it with folklore from all over Asia: Thailand, the Philipines, China, Vietnam, Indonesia, New Guinea, Malaysia, Cambodia, India, Mongolia, Korea and a little bit of Japan. And of course get a good team of Asian writers to work on it.

 

[humble minion]

Release a new book that does a better job, for 5e. Include all that folklore from other Asian countries that was left out of OA, and also change the name to something that isn't offensive. Instead of filling it with mostly Japanese tropes, fill it with folklore from all over Asia: Thailand, the Philipines, China, Vietnam, Indonesia, New Guinea, Malaysia, Cambodia, India, Mongolia, Korea and a little bit of Japan.

Indeed. Or better yet, recognise that all of this is too damn big for a 320 page sourcebook or whatever, and break it up. Do a comprehensive coverage of a subset of Asian cultures and countries, then come back and do the rest later. There's just so much cultural cross-pollination. You can't talk about, for instance, the shape of Chinese or Indian culture without addressing Buddhism, and a treatment of Buddhism is incomplete without addressing Nepal and Tibet. And similarly, looking at Papua is incomplete without talking about Polynesia, and looking at Indonesia is incomplete without talking about the Moluccas, and once you're talking about the Moluccan traders and pearl divers then you're crossing into Torres Strait Islander and Tiwi territory, and from there, you've basically already opened the gate to the enormous and almost completely uncharted territory marked 'indigenous Australia' which to the best of my knowledge has never EVER had a serious D&D treatment, or any treatment at all outside of the possum people in Mystara.

I have to admit, i was really looking forward to seeing Kobold Press have a go at an Asian-inspired setting in their Midgard world, which had a really varied and interesting treatment of African cultures. But that project seems to have vanished off the radar, unfortunately.

 

[Hussar]

You are right, of course. We're not expecting an academic, encyclopedic treatise on East Asian cultures. You can, of course, go the "inspired by" route which lets you cherry pick bits and pieces from the different cultures and mix them into something that works as a stand in for "East Asian fantasy" in the same way that D&D works as a stand in for "European fantasy".

You certainly don't have to cover every square inch. And, yes, that means that some cultures might get left out. That's unavoidable. But, so long at the attempt is honest and there's a broad enough net, you should be good. I mean, @Imaculata said it needs Asian writers. I'm not even sure that's necessary. But, certainly doing the research, and having some cultural consultants around will go miles towards not repeating the same mistakes.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Do explain me this: let's a Philipino player uses a real historical fact, the 1582 Cagayan battles where Spanish armada defeated wokou (Asian pirates) as source of inspiration for a game. Should be Asians get angry for a story where Caucasians are the good boys, and the villains are "slanted-eyed"?

I think we are near to be ready for the first step for a future Oriental-Adventures xuanhua&chanmbara sourcebook. After the comingsoon Tasha´s book the new PC races will include an optional list of racial traits to allow more flexibility for the creation of characters. WotC will publish a Unearthed Arcana with "races from far realms": the korokoburu, the shen/spiritfolk, hengeyokai and the vanara ( I suggest to add a new race based in the Korean dokkaebi). Other step will be to publish new Magic: Gathering planes based in myhtological folklore from Vietnam and Philipinas. After the feedback to reajust the strategy. Then we could see piece of playtesting about the martial adept classes, perfect for D&D xuanhuan settings. It would be more like "we give you the pieces and they you start to build".

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

I think we are near to be ready for the first step for a future Oriental-Adventures xuanhua&chanmbara sourcebook. After the comingsoon Tasha´s book the new PC races will include an optional list of racial traits to allow more flexibility for the creation of characters. WotC will publish a Unearthed Arcana with "races from far realms": the korokoburu, the shen/spiritfolk, hengeyokai and the vanara ( I suggest to add a new race based in the Korean dokkaebi). Other step will be to publish new Magic: Gathering planes based in myhtological folklore from Vietnam and Philipinas. After the feedback to reajust the strategy. Then we could see piece of playtesting about the martial adept classes, perfect for D&D xuanhuan settings. It would be more like "we give you the pieces and they you start to build".

Unfortunately, I would be very surprised if we saw something like this in the near future. While it would be nice to move outside of European-inspired material, in today's climate, accusations of cultural appropriation and anti-inclusive PR (do we leave out Tibet-inspired material to appease China?) are too high a risk to ignore.

 

[Imaculata]

Indeed. Or better yet, recognise that all of this is too damn big for a 320 page sourcebook or whatever, and break it up. Do a comprehensive coverage of a subset of Asian cultures and countries, then come back and do the rest later. There's just so much cultural cross-pollination. You can't talk about, for instance, the shape of Chinese or Indian culture without addressing Buddhism, and a treatment of Buddhism is incomplete without addressing Nepal and Tibet.

We're talking about a D&D book here, not a history book. Why would you even need to get into real world religions like Buddhism for a D&D book?

A new OA would need to include new classes/equipment/feats/monsters inspired by Asian folklore and history.
A new Oriental Adventures would always need to cherry pick what to include, and preferably from a wider basket than just Japan. It is never going to be a history book on every Asian country, and it shouldn't be.

But I'm not against releasing more than one book.

I mean, @Imaculata said it needs Asian writers. I'm not even sure that's necessary. But, certainly doing the research, and having some cultural consultants around will go miles towards not repeating the same mistakes.

I agree. Although I think I would at least try to get one or two Asian writers on the team, along with consultants.