D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[The Mirrorball Man]

What about an immigrant who receives German citizenship? Is he a custodian or not? What about a German born-citizen who hasn't lived in or visited Germany for 60 years?

How many nitpickers can dance on the head of a pin?

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

How many nitpickers can dance on the head of a pin?

I'll ask a different way:

What does it mean to identify as a German to the extent of being a custodian of folklore? What is the German-ness that someone identifies with? Are there pre-requisites one must meet in order to make the statement, I identify as German?, appropriate. Do those pre-requisites change? Can someone who once fit the prerequisites, but no longer does, still identify as German? Does it change if that person is no longer alive?

No matter how I try to answer those questions (and others), the answer feels arbitrary, which leads me to believe that culture doesn't exist and the act of identifying as something is fundamentally an illusion.

For example, I understand what it means to be a Lakers fan. Being a Lakers fan means choosing to be emotionally investing in the Lakers's success and failure.

When I say I identify as male (not a man, which is a different topic), I do so and can justify it because I have male gentiles. When I say, I am American, it means I have a US passport.

But when I say I identify as an American, I don't really understand what I'm saying. I can put the words together into a grammatical sentence, but I don't understand what would make that statement true or false, logical or illogical. I can't even name or describe the thing I am identifying with.

Likewise, when I say I identify as a man, I'm not sure what the manliness than I identify with is. I can't even describe a process through which it might be accurately discovered.

Perhaps others are more thoughtful and have better and more clear answers to these questions.

 

[Hussar]

@WayOfTheFourElements - presuming for the moment good faith behind these questions (and, frankly, I'm very much not convinced that these questions are being asked in good faith) - ethnicity and identity is grounded upon the culture of that ethnicity. Culture is derived from multiple sources, including but certainly not limited to history, art and language. So, to dismiss the historical context of a culture is to dismiss the existence of ethnicity itself.

Wars have been fought for less. Ask virtually any minority group anywhere if they feel that their cultural identity is important and something that should be protected.

While sure, cultures change and evolve over time, there are many cultures which can trace direct roots to older parts of their history. While, sure, medieval Japan is not the same as modern Japan, it is still very strongly part of their culture with living practices still being performed today - Sumo, bushido, ekibana (flower arrangement), Shuji (Japanese calligraphy), Haiku, just to name a few off the top of my head.

Cultural identity is of great importance to every culture.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

@WayOfTheFourElements - presuming for the moment good faith behind these questions (and, frankly, I'm very much not convinced that these questions are being asked in good faith) - ethnicity and identity is grounded upon the culture of that ethnicity. Culture is derived from multiple sources, including but certainly not limited to history, art and language. So, to dismiss the historical context of a culture is to dismiss the existence of ethnicity itself.

Wars have been fought for less. Ask virtually any minority group anywhere if they feel that their cultural identity is important and something that should be protected.

While sure, cultures change and evolve over time, there are many cultures which can trace direct roots to older parts of their history. While, sure, medieval Japan is not the same as modern Japan, it is still very strongly part of their culture with living practices still being performed today - Sumo, bushido, ekibana (flower arrangement), Shuji (Japanese calligraphy), Haiku, just to name a few off the top of my head.

Cultural identity is of great importance to every culture.

I'm not arguing cultural identity it isn't important for people. It absolutely is. That much is obvious. I also understand what sources culture is gathered from. But those two statements don't tell me much about what is means to identify as something, as opposed to be something.

I don't need to say, I identify as a teacher. I am a teacher. It is my job. I am a teacher because I do the act of teaching. If I'm fired tomorrow, I will no longer be a teacher. I will find a different job and become something else.

I have a student, who is Turkish. Turkish because she has a Turkish passport. But she doesn't think of herself as Turkish. She doesn't identify as being Turkish, despite being Turkish. Being Turkish and identifying as Turkish are apparently different.

In some ways, I feel like someone cannot be something that someone identifies as. Otherwise the person would be it, not identify as it.

 

[Hussar]

OK. Cool. Thanks for answering!

What about an immigrant who receives German citizenship? Is he a custodian or not? What about a German born-citizen who hasn't lived in or visited Germany for 60 years?

Again, what does this have to do with the reception of Oriental Adventures?

See, this is why I'm so reticent to engage you here @WayOfTheFourElements. It is a very common strategy to simply derail these conversations into endless rabbit holes and then declare that there can be no solution because no one can tell what the problem is. I've been dealing with cultural imperialism and appropriation as part of my professional life for about twenty years now. Numerous textbooks edited, courses and syllabi designed, endless meetings and presentations over the years. And the one thing that is ABSOLUTELY necessary whenever you want to talk about any of these issues is you must stay on topic, and never, EVER allow deviation.

Any deviation is a new topic and needs to be separated. Not that the deviations are necessarily bad, but, because it's far too difficult to answer all the questions at the same time. I mean, this is a thread devoted to talking about a single TSR published D&D book (well two I suppose if you want to include the 3e one as well) and the reactions of particular groups to that book. Now, you're trying to interject major philosophical questions in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with them. And, whether you intend it or not, is the prime strategy used by groups to impede discussion of the issues at hand.

Look, take it this way. Like I said, I've worked in this field for about twenty years now. I have a degree in political science specializing in ethnic conflict. Professionally and educationally, I have literally spent hundreds of hours on these issues, and probably closer to thousands of hours. When I tell you that culture is foundational to identity, you can take that as a given. It's not something I need to prove because, frankly, it's been proven multiple times by people a hell of a lot smarter than me.

So, at the end of the day, these are very good questions your are asking. Now, get yourself to a decent library and start reading in the field. Because, honestly, you are not helping the discussion, you are standing in the way.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Again, what does this have to do with the reception of Oriental Adventures?

See, this is why I'm so reticent to engage you here @WayOfTheFourElements. It is a very common strategy to simply derail these conversations into endless rabbit holes and then declare that there can be no solution because no one can tell what the problem is. I've been dealing with cultural imperialism and appropriation as part of my professional life for about twenty years now. Numerous textbooks edited, courses and syllabi designed, endless meetings and presentations over the years. And the one thing that is ABSOLUTELY necessary whenever you want to talk about any of these issues is you must stay on topic, and never, EVER allow deviation.

Any deviation is a new topic and needs to be separated. Not that the deviations are necessarily bad, but, because it's far too difficult to answer all the questions at the same time. I mean, this is a thread devoted to talking about a single TSR published D&D book (well two I suppose if you want to include the 3e one as well) and the reactions of particular groups to that book. Now, you're trying to interject major philosophical questions in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with them. And, whether you intend it or not, is the prime strategy used by groups to impede discussion of the issues at hand.

Look, take it this way. Like I said, I've worked in this field for about twenty years now. I have a degree in political science specializing in ethnic conflict. Professionally and educationally, I have literally spent hundreds of hours on these issues, and probably closer to thousands of hours. When I tell you that culture is foundational to identity, you can take that as a given. It's not something I need to prove because, frankly, it's been proven multiple times by people a hell of a lot smarter than me.

So, at the end of the day, these are very good questions your are asking. Now, get yourself to a decent library and start reading in the field. Because, honestly, you are not helping the discussion, you are standing in the way.

People say that they are offended by OA because of their identify. I'm wondering what is means to identify as something. The first statement is based on the second. They are inherently tied together.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

OA wan't a bad step, but only insufficient as first step. Today thanks manganime or otaku fiction Japanese is more known in the western faction.

Mulan is famous thanks Disney in the Western. The cartoon of Jackie Chan is a good example, but not more famous most of Japanese franchises. By the way, a Jackie Chan's movie. Wheels on Meals, was set in Barcelona, Spain.

I dare to say maybe Kung-fu Panda is the most famous franchise based in Chinese culture.

Chinese culture isn't homogeneus, but media productions by Tencent also may commit that same sin.

* I remember when I was a child in the soap-opera "Falcon Crest" (very popular at Europe at least, the actress who played Angela Chaning was Ronald Reagan's ex-wife), Chao-li, Angela's faithful majordomo and chauffeur, was one of the most popular characters. A true legal guy.

* My advice is the own Asian companies to create their own IPs to promote the cultures from their countries. You get more goals with positive stimules. Less sticks and more carrots, less scolding and more rewards to make people to change.

 

[Voadam]

But when I say I identify as an American, I don't really understand what I'm saying. I can put the words together into a grammatical sentence, but I don't understand what would make that statement true or false, logical or illogical. I can't even name or describe the thing I am identifying with.

Identity is partly a choice, partly situational, and partly perceptional.

If you think of being American as part of who you are it is part of your identity. It can be a bigger or smaller part of your identity it is not fixed by just being American. It is perfectly logical to be an American who does not identify as an American, it can be an insignificant consideration for them and their conception of their identity.

I don't need to say, I identify as a teacher. I am a teacher. It is my job. I am a teacher because I do the act of teaching. If I'm fired tomorrow, I will no longer be a teacher. I will find a different job and become something else.

Then you do not identify as a teacher, it is a job for you and not how you identify yourself. Others do take being a teacher as a significant part of their identity. Someone who identifies as a teacher still thinks of themselves as such if they lose their job, they still approach life in some ways as a teacher.

 

[Ace]

Umm, what?

We're talking about a book written in the US, by Americans, for the US market. China had zero input into this. Korea had zero input into this.

I agree, we can find monsters and elements from all sorts of different folklores and mythologies from all over Europe and beyond in the base game. Which is kinda the point. You cannot simply paint all of East Asia with a single brush. And that's what Oriental Adventures does. It tries to pretend that the only culture of note that we need to be aware of is Japanese culture. Nothing else matters.

Do you see the issue now? Like I said, if this was a book about playing in Mythic Japan, then all my issues vanish. I would shut up and go away if that were true. Unfortunately, it's not true. It paints multiple cultures with a single brush, blatantly ignoring other cultures and influences while pretending that that single culture is the only one that matters.

Game books first and foremost need to sell to the largest audience possible and most gamers just want cool stuff to play with

Expecting all of gaming to share the preferences of the more academically inclined ones is counterproductive.

Also OA was written two generations ago for a different people, culturally and ethnically and with much less information. Its nearly 40 years old.

For younger forumites, China was poor and undeveloped and under a totalitarian Communist regime, Korea was still just getting on its feet from the Korean War and various internal struggles and nobody other than some scholars or residents knew much of anything in the US about anywhere in Asia except Japan. It was also ethnically different with a much smaller Asian and other groups population running around 80% or more European. Odds are most Americans had never met an Asian. Note I lived close to a pretty diverse city and never met anyone "not like me" till I was 12.

Standards of politeness were also different and so you might see references to terms that grate now. Oriental in those days was an academic term!

On top of that there were few people to reach out to and even books were hard to come by often difficult even for academics to acquire and rife with nonsense .And as for the culture, being a regular guy back than, one on the polite side would get you shunned on many forums these days.

If you approach OA from what it was , a relic of the past made to 80's Ninja craze tastes and with at least a degree of care and fidelity its much better.

Also re: cultures.

Some cultures are so rich and complex its simply not possible to do them justice so there will be shortcuts. A good example, GURPS China. It is regarded poorly even by enthusiasts even though its 128 pages, little art and written with academic rigor at least for its period. Its just too much to cover in one book. Of course no one wants 5 or ten books either which is why current GURPS material is shortish specific PDF's

Now if OA were to be remade, it would need to be renamed. Kara Tur Adventures is much better on a lot of grounds,.

It was also play up the hotch potch element of the setting and lose any claims to cultural or historical fidelity. It would be about as authentically Asian as the Avatar the Last Airbender which is fine for gaming

This won't satisfy the academics but its a game book and it would make actual buyers happy in a low offense way and sell like hotcakes.

 

[Umbran]

Also: another fact: COVID-19 is a specific strain of flu.

Just to correct the continuation of false information.

Covid-19 IS NOT CAUSED BY A STRAIN OF FLU.

"Flu" comes from "influenza". It is caused by an influenza virus.

"Covid-19" is short for "Corona Virus Disease 2019". It is the disease caused by a coronavirus (SARS-COV-2 is the official designation for the virus itself).

Saying that Covid-19 is a flu is like saying a dog is a cat. Maybe more like a dog is a frog. The viruses are significantly different in how they operate.