Angel 10/29/2003 (Possible Spoilers)

[DanMcS]

But I can't believe that out of Fred, Lilah, and Gwen, they chose to get rid of the latter two and keep only Fred.

You're verging on ranting here, man. Of the three people you name, the two they "got rid of" were never primary characters to begin with.

Actually, I'm really wondering if they really chose to boot Lilah at all. In the finale last season, she was set up to be the one in the role Eve is playing now. Maybe they couldn't get the actress to sign on? Because Eve just kind of showed up out of nowhere, like, yep, I went to UC Santa Cruz, I'm ambiguously evil, and I'm your liason with hell, anybody want to do lunch?

 

[CCamfield]

Well, Lilah is dead, which puts something of a crimp on things. Maybe the fact that Spike was being added as a ghost made it impossible to do the same with Lilah.

As for Gwen, was the last we saw of her the episode in which she and Gunn went to that party to steal something? If so, I wouldn't count her out of reappearing this season, but she's hardly a regular character.


As far as Wesley goes, I think that he was able to maintain the drive of being "rogue demon hunter" because he was in a lot of pain. He'd tried to do the right thing, it turned out not to be, he had his throat slit and Angel tried to smother him with a pillow, he was abandoned by his friends. A lot of those issues have been smoothed over or dealt with now.

OTOH it would be great to see him being more kick-ass, or for that matter actually getting more screen time. I feel like he's been stuck in the background this season.

 

[DM_Matt]

You are right, except that on the third Buffy Halloween ep it was a group of young vamps causing trouble, leading Spike to complain that they were "giving us [vamps] all a bad name", or something to that effect.

I guess I just expected something different.

Oh, what were the trailers for next week? For some reason I miss them every time.

Not quite. It was ep 6x6- All the Way. It was a Dawn-centric ep in which she and Janis sneak off to hang out with these two guys who turn out to be vampires. When they turn up missing, the gang splits up and searches. Giles finds them and kills Janis' vamp, and in response a big gang of young vampires appear, just as Buffy and Spike appear. Spike fights the leader who says "Me and mine don't follow no rules. We're rebels." In response, spike throws him down, says "I'm a rebel. YOu're an idiot." then pulls out a crossbow and shoots him.

Also, Dawns vamp, Justin, chases her away from the group and castches her, and a repeat of the season 2 finale where BUffy kills Angel ensues. (I love you...STAKE!)

The ep is also the one where Xander and Anya announce their engagement, where Willow casts the forget spell on Tara, and when Dawn steals what appears to be the amulet that summons the demon from the musical episode.

 

[LightPhoenix]

You're verging on ranting here, man. Of the three people you name, the two they "got rid of" were never primary characters to begin with.

Oh, it was full on ranting, no doubt. I really can't stand Fred's character.

Actually, I'm really wondering if they really chose to boot Lilah at all. In the finale last season, she was set up to be the one in the role Eve is playing now. Maybe they couldn't get the actress to sign on? Because Eve just kind of showed up out of nowhere, like, yep, I went to UC Santa Cruz, I'm ambiguously evil, and I'm your liason with hell, anybody want to do lunch?

I suspect as much. Death was no problem for her - she was brought back at the end of last season. And Wesley's attempt to free her soul only solidifies my thinking that they actually did care about each other, in some freaky weird way. It was a messed up relationship.

In a lot of ways it ties into my dislike of Fred, especially this "every guy must be attracted to her" syndrome that they have going on.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Well, Lilah is dead, which puts something of a crimp on things. Maybe the fact that Spike was being added as a ghost made it impossible to do the same with Lilah.

Except they brought back Lilah before Spike was even on the show.

As for Gwen, was the last we saw of her the episode in which she and Gunn went to that party to steal something? If so, I wouldn't count her out of reappearing this season, but she's hardly a regular character.

I don't count on it, but Gwen brought a sort of bravado and blatant sexiness to the show that none of the other characters really had. Lilah was completely self-confident, in control, and... I guess the word I would use is grown-up. Cordelia was the mother, the watcher, the moral center and the one who held together the group in times of bad.

Fred really is simply a female version of old-Wesley, with a more scientific bent than mystical. She's even undergoing a lot of the same character growth that Wesley went through, as was noted by Hand of Evil. Maybe if they emphasized her science a little more, and made her more logical and down to earth than everyone else, it would work better. And I completely don't buy the sudden shift to Fred being the one holding the group together. She doesn't have the charisma Cordelia had, or Lilah for that matter.

As far as Wesley goes, I think that he was able to maintain the drive of being "rogue demon hunter" because he was in a lot of pain. He'd tried to do the right thing, it turned out not to be, he had his throat slit and Angel tried to smother him with a pillow, he was abandoned by his friends. A lot of those issues have been smoothed over or dealt with now.

True, but he was still extremely hurt when he had to chop off Lilah's head.

OTOH it would be great to see him being more kick-ass, or for that matter actually getting more screen time. I feel like he's been stuck in the background this season.

As do I, mostly because of Spike and less-so Fred.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I still haven't forgotten the scene last season where Lilah dressed up as Fred, and Wesley Made her keep the outfit on while they had sex. He's got a LOT of issues with Fred still locked up, and part of Lilah's relationship was in that context.

True, and I wish he'd just get over them. Fred just treats him like total crap when she knows how he feels. She seriously just needs to tell him no way, and she isn't.

What Wesley really needs to do is just get away again. He was doing fine on his own.

I still haven't forgotten that SHE was the one who saved them all from Jasmine, with the brilliant "shoot Jasmine and Angel with the same bullet" idea. The character has shown time and again just how strong she really is, and the fact that it's coming out more to the fore this season is to me a natural progression.

Which we've already seen with Wesley. Besides which, they intentionally wrote it so she'd be the one to figure things out. They easily could have written Wesley or Angel into that role and had it work just as well. It was a brilliant idea, but not anything we wouldn't have expected Wesley, Angel, or even Cordelia had she been conscious to figure out, were they in the position.

However, I wished they had played out the theme a little more than just a "one episode" gag. I honestly wished Lorne was being "driven insane" or some such, and have it be a larger plot arc. Instead, the dummy had his sleep removed - WHO COULD POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT TO BE A GOOD THING?!?!?

Someone who really isn't helping out at all, and thinking he needs to do more. I'm not a particular fan of Lorne being in the main cast myself, but it's understandable. In fact, Gunn did the exact same thing, by letting W&H augment him, for pretty much the same reason.

As I noted in an earlier thread, it's going to be interesting if another "good group" shows up trying to take down Wolfram and Hart - God, if only Gunn's old running buddies could see him now! Three years ago, he's dragging flaming vampires into Wolfram and Hart's lobby to distract them; now, he's defending their clientelle from the court system, tooling around in Italian Silk suits and lounging in his office behind necro-tinted windows!

Either would be a great story, but I'm not particularly sure we're going to see either one.

I think I can see where this season's going, and if I'm right, and Joss' crew plays this for all it's worth, the gang is going to be gazing straight into the Abyss, in the truest Neitzschean sense.

Share!

 

[CCamfield]

Except they brought back Lilah before Spike was even on the show.

True. What I meant was, though, that once the decision was made to have Spike as a ghost on the show as a regular cast member, it'd difficult to keep Lilah as a ghost on the show as a regular cast member too.

I understand what you mean about Fred being a female version of the old Wesley, but I think Wesley was far more incompetent. And I don't see the "same character growth" going on, really.

True, but he was still extremely hurt when he had to chop off Lilah's head.

True... I don't know, maybe they thought they'd wrapped it up by having Lilah say it was okay? They could certainly be devoting some time to it, yeah.

 

[Shallown]

THe only thing I would have prefered is that Subconscious Lorne not look so goofy. He should have been in a mirrored suit that was a dark color instead of llloking like a Mask knock off.

The episodes haven't been real strong yet but I expect Joss to pull it all together he has before and I have faith taht he will again. They haven't been bad I think just okay.

Later

 

[Staffan]

I thought Angel's appreciation for hockey came up before, but it's possible I'm just remembering an appearance that David Boreanz did on one of the late-night TV, in which he mentioned that he is a huge hockey fan.

He wanted to get Connor (while still an infant) some mini-hockey stuff, which Gunn didn't like because hockey is "whitest sport known to man."

Except they brought back Lilah before Spike was even on the show.

They also mentioned that bringing in dead employees is rather costly (in one fashion or another), so that's why Lilah isn't a regular anymore. I wouldn't be surprised to see her show up once or twice though, likely in time for sweeps.

 

[zyzzyr]

What I'm trying to figure out is why doesn't Wesley use his new "executive" powers and release Lilah from her contract? He tried to burn it while on the tour -- but now that he's a decision maker (or Angel is), surely they could free her? (Mind you, she'd only go straight to hell).