Animals as cohorts

[Conaill]

For a very quick-and-dirty LA estimate for awakened animals, you could use LA = CR - HD/3 (the awakened animal CR will be approximately one higher than the original animal). That way you'll at least include all the special abilities which count towards CR as well.

For more discussion of awakened animals, please stop by the Awakened Animal thread. Still looking for some more exact LA estimates for various animals as well!

 

[Will]

I never did reply to JG...

But the extra abilities of animals are already involved! That's how they set HD. Look at creatures with roughly similar HD... a tiger has much less strength than a bear, but has better Dex, and a few more abilities.

It is my contention that HD function to balance animals in particular. They are like class levels that 'buy' ability advantages and other special traits.

 

[Conaill]

Yes, an average animal's stats scale with HD. In fact, WotC put out a nice "How to create a monster" pdf to specify the recommended scaling. For example, recommended Str for a Large creature is 18-19, Dex is 12-13, Con is 16-17, HD is 2-4, etc...

Note that there are such recommended scaling rules for ALL creature types. In particular, I believe the recommended scaling for Magical Beast is identical, and many of those Magical Beasts DO have non-zero Level Adjustments.

The problems creep in when the animal has additional abilities which are *not* represented in it's hit dice. One obvious example is the difference between a Dog and an Eagle. Both Small, 1 HD creatures, but the ability to fly would be much more useful to a PC, and therefore should contribute to it's Level Adjustment.

Other examples would be the ape's hands and 10' Reach, the snakes' venom, or a giant octopus' 8 attacks per round and 20' Reach (compare: Orca, Huge, 9HD, CR 5 versus Giant Octopus, Large, 8HD, CR 8).

 

[Zym]

I just took a look at the Wild Cohort feat, and have a quick question about that...

If I would choose to take that feat with my 9th lvl Ranger, and wanted eg. an leopard as my cohort, how would I determin his special abilities etc?

I guess the most obvious way to determin this would be to take my level -3, and then look at the Wild Cohort table as a lvl 6 character, right?

Actually wouldnt you determine the Animal cohorts abilities based of your effective "Druid" level as well?

So at 9th level your considered a 6th lvl druid, a leopard is druid level -3 for cohort abilities gained. So you would be considered 3rd for table effects. Otherwise the Animal Cohorts almost outshine their counterparts.

Not positive myself and the question has come up in our game as well.

 

[jgsugden]

Will: If your hypothesis were true, then there would be a fixed relationship betwen CR and HD for animals. All animals of 4 HD would be 'tougher' than all 3 HD creatures. This is not true.

A Bison has 5 HD and a CR of 2. A lion has 5 HD, but has a CR of 3. If you look at the two creatures, you can see that they are drastically different in combat ability. The lion is a far better combatant.

Compare a leopard (3 HD, CR 2) and a light horse (3 HD, CR 1).

They did not set the abilities of an animal based upon HD. Generally, as the HD of the animal rise, the attributes and special abilities *tend* to increase, but that rate of increase is far from consistant.

If you're going to figure out an ECL for an animal, you'll need to do it from scratch. The primary use of most animals would be as melee fighters. Compare them to a standard melee fighter PC build and see where they balance in power. You do need to take into account the lack of noncombat abilities (ie; low int) when figuring out the ECL, but the combat ability should be the prime focus as that is where the animal is likely to have the biggest impact.

 

[Conaill]

The primary use of most animals would be as melee fighters. Compare them to a standard melee fighter PC build and see where they balance in power.

Actually, for the majority of awakened animals, a Monk comparison may be more appropriate, because of the whole "no hands - only natural weapons" issue.

In fact, I've been having exactly such a discussion with was_fired over on the wizards forums regarding what should be the appropriate LA for an awakened heavy warhorse. We've narrowed it down to +3 LA, possibly +2 LA.

 

[Will]

My hypothesis is for level adjustment, not CR. CR is about combat ability. Comparing a swift to an eagle, the swift might actually make a nicely viable character, but few would argue about relative combat ability.

I would argue that for a PC or awakened animal, a Bison and a Lion's capabilities are close. Bison has better Str and Con, Lion has much better Dex and better Wis.

I think the lion is generally better, but only by a small margin. I offer the defense that perhaps the difference isn't enough to mean a difference in level adjustment, and both should be level 5 characters.

Now, looking at horses and leopards, and crossing my fingers that my thesis doesn't get blown out of the water...

A light warhorse has significantly higher speed (60 vs. 40), larger (which is somewhat neutral, good and bad), less Dex, more Con, slightly better attack routine (two primaries, one secondary), worse special abilities (carrying capacity vs. improved grab/pounce/rake/skill bonuses).

Actually, here we have a possible attack on my idea. Light horse and light warhorse are both 3 HD. The differences are relatively minor, I'd maintain. Mainly, a horse is not trained for combat so lacks weapon skills, but that is easily fixed with a level of fighter or something.

But I still think my idea is tenable...

Hmm. To be fair, let's look at heavy vs. light warhorse. Is a step up in HD greater in distinction than the stuff I'm claiming is equal enough?

Heavy warhorse is slightly slower, better Strength... and that's about it.

So my claim is that this advance is worth about +1/2 LA, while the others are less. Arguable, I grant you.

But I cling to lycanthropism... it's precedent! Precedent, I tells ya!

 

[Will]

Yeah, but Conaill, that would give the awakened horse the same specs as a lycanthrope. Except minus the human and hybrid forms, DR, and extra feats...

Of course, this assumes people think lycanthrope LA is fair.

 

[Conaill]

Leopard vs light war horse (being generous here):

Leopard has better Initiative, better AC, better attack, better damage, better feat selection, better special attacks. The horse... can run away faster.

Leopard wins

Also, the Leopard has a friggin' Dex of 19! Don't you think that would be worth *something* to a playerwho want to make a dex-based PC?!


Now let's have a look at the examples I brought up earlier: the Giant Octopus with 8 attacks at 20' Reach... eek!

Eagle vs Owl: Owl is smaller and generally weaker

Rat vs. Raven: almost identical, except that Ravens have 4 more Charisma and can fly!

Mule vs. Black Bear: Bear has higher speed, better attack roll, more attacks, more damage. The Mule has 3 more hp. Dead mule...

Mule vs. Crocodile: even worse

Rat or Tiny Viper vs. Toad: The toad doesn't even have any attacks!

 

[Stalker0]

A Bison has 5 HD and a CR of 2. A lion has 5 HD, but has a CR of 3. If you look at the two creatures, you can see that they are drastically different in combat ability. The lion is a far better combatant.

Compare a leopard (3 HD, CR 2) and a light horse (3 HD, CR 1).

A fighter is usually a better melee combatant than a rogue, but they have the same cr at the same level.

Cohorts like classes are as good as the role they are set for. If I want melee combat, the leopard is better. If I wanted a companion I could ride on and go with mounted combat, the horse is better (and hey, its always nice to have a friend willing to get my ass out of danger!!)

I think the awakened animal +2 HD is enough of a change. Just go with level = HD (including the awakened hd), and just go from there.