Animals as cohorts

[jgsugden]

A fighter is usually a better melee combatant than a rogue, but they have the same cr at the same level.

But that is not a fair comparison. I selected a fighter versus an animal as they will both tend to serve the same purpose - melee combat - when used as a PC. A rogue has a plethora of other abilities and uses.

Cohorts like classes are as good as the role they are set for. If I want melee combat, the leopard is better. If I wanted a companion I could ride on and go with mounted combat, the horse is better (and hey, its always nice to have a friend willing to get my ass out of danger!!)

True. Different animals have differet uses and values. This is a strong argument *against* any set formula based upon HD versus LA.

I think the awakened animal +2 HD is enough of a change. Just go with level = HD (including the awakened hd), and just go from there.

I strongly discourage people from assuming anything like a fixed formula between HD and LA, even for animals. It is too open for abuse. When the situation arises where LA comes into question, figure it out based upon trial and error estimation. Figure out what role the animal will play for the PCs (likely that will be as a melee fighter, though other uses are possible) and then figure out a fairly balanced equivalent in terms of a PC. That will give you a guide as to the proper LA. This is the *only* way to get a decent LA with a degree of certainty as to accuracy. Why rely blindly upon a set formula when you can get a better answer through some quick trial and error comparisons?

 

[Stalker0]

This is a strong argument *against* any set formula based upon HD versus LA.

So your saying that fighters and rogues of equal HD shouldn't be the same level?

I agree that LA are always the best way, but in the abscence of that let's go with a model that can work for any animal companion. THe HD = LA isn't perfect, but I think it will work alright.

 

[Stalker0]

How about using CR to compromise?

If a 3rd level rogue is a CR 3, then a CR 3 creature should be about 3 class levels in comparison.

 

[Will]

Unfortunately, CR is strongly 'one shot' based. That is, the ability to fly for 5 minutes is about as useful as constant flight, since in an encounter, it's going to get used.

Going back to JG... by that argument, _all_ monsters should adjust LA based on character classes, and adjustments should be made to core races. After all, a half-orc sorcerer is getting a hit compared to a half-orc fighter.

And you missed some aspects to the attack... while the light warhorse has a worse chance to hit (+4 rather than +6) and slightly less damage (1d4+3 hoof, 1d3+1 bite vs. 1d6+3 bite and 1d3+1 claw), you missed something. The light warhorse gets two hoof attacks at primary and one bite as secondary, vs. the leopard's bite and 2 claws.

That, particularly with fighter levels, will make a difference quickly.

Combine with monk levels (a strange but natural path for awakened animals, given natural weapons)

Class levels will make these differences less over time.

However, a warhorse is much more able to have things like, say, barding. A horse paladin? It's carrying capacity is nothing to ignore. It could have a _lot_ of equipment. Though an item of mage hand would probably be good for all awakened animals...

The leopard is a great rogue and agile fighter. But the horse can make a decent line fighter, particularly if heavily armored. A charge... man.

Going back to the original point, I think you have to look at level adjustment by what would be 'optimal' for that animal. Cats, for instance, make kick-ass rogues.

The question, of course, is can a light warhorse be just as good, in one character direction, as an optimized leopard? I'm not _sure_, but I think the answer is close to 'yes.'

And I still wave people at lycanthropes. Unless someone maintains lycanthropes are broken, I'd seriously question any awakened animal with a LA above +1.

Among other things, NO HANDS (for nearly all animals).

That's pretty frikkin' significant.

It occurs to me that a PC awakened animal would really want to get leadership and cohort/followers of her own... to help out with hand-related tasks. 'Get me in my armor, stat!'

 

[Conaill]

Since we're back to discussing warhorses... please have a look at the awakened heavy warhorse LA derivation we did over on wizards.com. This is exactly how Savage Species recommends to check LA. And we came up with a +3 LA...

 

[Will]

I still have a problem with that. A natural werehorse has an LA of +3 and _significantly_ better abilities in every way.

 

[Conaill]

How about using CR to compromise?

If a 3rd level rogue is a CR 3, then a CR 3 creature should be about 3 class levels in comparison.

Doesn't work. For one, CR and ECL scale entirely different. CR is typically a fraction of HD (about half, for animals), whereas ECL is typically lower bounded by HD (i.e. negative LA's are extremely rare).

In fact, if you look at the CR calculator (from Dragon #276), you'll see that CR already included a fraction of HD: you divide hp by 4.5, add some number for special attacks and special qualities that affect combat, then divide the whole thing again by 3.

The upshot is that, for animals, you get CR = HD/3 + combat adjustments. That's excatly why I suggested using LA = CR - HD/3 as a quick-and-dirty estimate: at least that way you include all the combat-related adjustments that are included in CR as well. Far from perfect, but it's a step up from assuming LA 0

 

[Will]

The CR = HD/3 thing doesn't seem to mesh at all with what's in the MM...

 

[Conaill]

I still have a problem with that. A natural werehorse has an LA of +3 and _significantly_ better abilities in every way.

Oh, I entirely agree that lycanthrope LA's are wrong.

 

[Conaill]

The CR = HD/3 thing doesn't seem to mesh at all with what's in the MM...

It's supposed to be CR > HD/3. Or rather, CR > hp / 4.5 / 3.

That's the baseline, then you add various adjustments to it. (And then you playtest and probably figure out it's wrong anyway )

Does anyone have a handy table of 3.5 monsters with their HD, CR and LA?