Animals as cohorts

[Conaill]

Actually, based on the comparison above, I think I might put the LA for the awakened tiger around +3.

Ftr13:
13d10 = 71 hp
BAB +13, Full attack +13/+8/+3 greatsword (2d6)
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +4

Slightly better hp (which will get even better with a Con bonus), higher 1st attack but lower 2nd and 3rd. Still lower damage on each attack though. Poorer saves, but two extra feats. Oh, and one extra stat adjustment. Tiger doesn't have any hands, but does fine with his natural weapons. Could make it hard to drink healing potions etc.

Seems reasonably balanced...

 

[Will]

No hands means limit on many skills, no rings, no rope use, huge difficulties putting on/taking off equipment...

Armor is pretty damn pricey (though not enhancement of armor).

An animal is likely to have trouble interacting with many many types of NPCs.

I think these disadvantages are more significant than they are being given credit for.

 

[Will]

Ftr 13/Tgr with LA +3:

Well, 2 extra regular feats, but also alll those extra fighter feats. Don't forget those.

And re: hands... it's a lot easier to switch weapons, and cheaper to buy weapons with special abilities, as a human. And weapon materials. (Though monk would help an animal here)

 

[Conaill]

Well, 2 extra regular feats, but also alll those extra fighter feats. Don't forget those.

I was starting at the Ftr10 comparison, where I considered the Ftr's extra feats as about equal to the Tiger's extra abilities: "He also has 5 more feats, but the tiger has improved grab, pounce, rake, a higher Init (+2), Speed (40') and Darkvision (60'), so that looks like a wash."

The Ftr13 has two more feats than the Ftr10. I don't think that outweighs the lower weapon damage and saves.

You are right about the lack of hands. Although I think it's somewhat less of a handicap for the tiger, at least when it comes to combat. Just because of the butt-kicking natural weapons the tiger gets. Sure, give him the same greatsword the Fighter has, and his damage output jumps to 2d6+9, but he loses a whole attack. That's one 16 point attack, versus two 10-point attacks (1d8+6), more than that with Power Attack.

Inability to use effective weapons is an important factor. Lack of hands might still be worth a -1 LA even without it, but I'd prefer to hear some more opinions on that.

 

[Will]

Well, let's not get too hung up on combat. Even a fighter can have some application outside of combat that a tiger might not...

Another thing I just realized. A tiger can't drink potions (unless someone feeds it to him).

 

[Leopold]

Well, let's not get too hung up on combat. Even a fighter can have some application outside of combat that a tiger might not...

Another thing I just realized. A tiger can't drink potions (unless someone feeds it to him).

Also he can't cast spells unless he pisses away 2 feats. But since he's a fighter it doesn't matter though.

I just got into a Level 15 game and had the feral template on a red 1/2 dragon centaur bar/5. I could've used pounce and rake but the sheer amount of damage one can do with a weapon far outweighs the fact that you would want to use your natural weapons. I found that (even though we played twice I died quickly taking down a cloud giant ranger!) I never used pounce nor rake as charging quickly deals more damage if you are out of range and pounce is really only good for the time that you are in combat and need to move from one enemy to the other.

I would not count pounce or rake in the ECL equation as that's a natural ability that the tiger gets over the course of it's 9HD progression rather than something bonus that it gets. Compare it to the fighters feats or the paladins saves if you wish.

I haven't broken this thing down yet to look at it, but a 12 seems way too high for this thing.

 

[Conaill]

Leopold (or anyone else): Have you had any more time to look at the Awakened Tiger? I think in terms of combat ability, awakened tiger/Ftr1 is reasonably blanced against a Ftr13, which would mean a +3 LA.

I'm definitely willing to consider +2 LA because of the lack of hands, but I'm a little afraid some munchkins might starts to see an awakened tiger as a "good deal" at that point. I'd love to hear some more input on this - especially some more acid test comparisons!

Just for kicks, here's the main stats for an awakened tiger Monk 1:
9d8+27 = 67 hp
AC 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural, +1 Wis)
BAB +6, Full attack 2 claws +11 (1d8+6) plus bite +6 melee (2d6+3)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +5

Monk 12:
12d8 = 54 hp
AC 12 (+2 Monk)
BAB +9, Flurry +9/+9/+9/+4 (2d6)
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +8

Tiger gets better hp, AC, attack bonus and damage. Saves add up to the same, but Monk12 gets a bunch of abilities like Still Mind, Purity of Body, Evasion etc that essentially improve or bypass his saves. Both are faster than your average human, but Monk beats Tiger by a whole 30'.

 

[Conaill]

Actually, based on the comparison above, I think I might put the LA for the awakened tiger around +3.

Ftr13:
13d10 = 71 hp
BAB +13, Full attack +13/+8/+3 greatsword (2d6)
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +4

Oops... seems like I had an off-by-one error in that comparison.

Awakened Tiger is 8HD. If the LA is +3, that would make for an ECL of 11. So I should have compared the awakened tiger/Ftr1 with a Ftr12, not a Ftr13.

Ftr12 has almost exactly the same stats as Ftr13, except 12d10 = 66 hp, and BAB is one lower. Stat-wise, the tiger is going to whoop the Ftr's butt, although the Ftr has 2 more tricks up his sleeve than the tiger. I think this comparison would definitely tilt in favor of the tiger, if it weren't for his lack of hands.

Let's say +3 LA and call it a day...

 

[Leopold]

3 sounds good

 

[Conaill]

Thanks, L!