Another Broken Combo: Seal of Binding and Divine Regeneration

[MarkChevallier]

The Cascade of Blades problem is genuine and could be used to kill any Solo in 1 round. It is possible, but unlikely, that bad luck could prevent it.

I think I've found a much simpler combo that produces a similar problem: namely, the near-certain demise of solo challenges. (I posted it on the CO boards on Gleemax too.)

Seal of Binding (level 25 Cleric Daily) is a Wis vs Will attack that if it strikes does 3d10 + Wis, stuns the enemy, and makes them immune to the effects of any other attacks.

You can sustain it with a standard action, inflicting 2d10 + Wis damage on you and the target. You cannot sustain it when blooded. The enemy gets no save, and no secondary attack is required. The intent is, clearly, that the power saps you of life and you can't keep it up indefinitely.

But Divine Regeneration takes a minor action to perform and gives you regeneration equal to your highest attribute. This means, effectively, that you can sustain Seal of Binding as long as you wish (up to the max 5 mins, anyway).

So, 1 round of 3d10 + Wis, and 49 rounds of 2d10 + Wis, makes 101d10 + (50 x Wis + any other damage boosts) - on a thoroughly optimised Cleric, that's around 1350 damage.

Aha, you cry: That won't kill Orcus, you pussy! But watch: the Seal of Binding stops the effects of any attacks. If a source of damage doesn't involve an attack against the target (Cloudkill, Slashing Wake, Wall of Ice etc) then the Seal does not prevent the damage.

It becomes trivially easy to kill Orcus. The Tarrasque is ironically tougher, since you might not be able to stack up enough 10+ damaging effects. You should get at least 800 odd hit points off him, though, before he gets to act and the other PCs need to do anything.

The big weak point of this combo is making the initial attack. I haven't looked through to see what is possible in terms of to-hit boosts, but I'm betting it's reasonably straight-forward. Step number 1 would be the Divine Oracle paragon path (allows you to roll twice for Will attacks and pick the best one).

Poor Orcus. He's just popped into existence and already adventurers are lining up with foolproof ways to nuke the bugger.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Really, I don't see the problem with this tactic. Orcus especially shouldn't be killed by this, as it's going to take a long time to finish him off (note that Wall of Ice and Cloudkill are both attacks, they just don't require an attack roll). Any DM worth his salt isn't going to let the cleric just stand there for hours to kill any solo monster. Something else is going to show up to knock the character around and bloody him up fast.

 

[KevinF]

I like how you describe it as being "simple"

1) Become a level 26 demigod.
2) Learn a cool power that does 25 pts of damage a round
3) Learn a second cool power that gives you a high regen
4) Stand within 10 squares of a Major solo monster.

As for Orcus, I think you forgot his 10-20 points per round of necrotic damage to everything within a range of 20... Once you're bloodied, you can't sustain the power.

But when my character becomes a demigod, I might try that combo!

 

[Archmage]

Check your work

Seal of Binding (level 25 Cleric Daily) is a Wis vs Will attack that if it strikes does 3d10 + Wis, stuns the enemy, and makes them immune to the effects of any other attacks.

You can sustain it with a standard action, inflicting 2d10 + Wis damage on you and the target. You cannot sustain it when blooded. The enemy gets no save, and no secondary attack is required. The intent is, clearly, that the power saps you of life and you can't keep it up indefinitely.

But Divine Regeneration takes a minor action to perform and gives you regeneration equal to your highest attribute. This means, effectively, that you can sustain Seal of Binding as long as you wish (up to the max 5 mins, anyway).

You should probably check the math on this. 2d10+Wis for a Wis-focused 30th level cleric means 2d10+9 (Wis 18 + 2 (dwarf) + 8 (level increases) =28 = +9). 2d10+4 averages out to 20 points per round, so you're taking 20 and regenerating 9 hp per round for a net loss of 11 hp per round. A level 30 cleric would have 173 hit points (being nice and giving a 16 Con), which is a bloodied value of 86. Discounting other healing, the cleric is bloodied after 9 rounds, which means big O has taken a whopping total of about 185 damage over that time. Let's not forget Orcus' necrotic aura, which adds another 10 damage per round to what the cleric is taking, which should at the very least offset most of what the party does to keep the cleric healed. If any flunkies o' Orcus are around, that's either additional damage on the cleric or less effort the party can devote to healing him.

Something tells me that a party focused on, you know, killing the bad guy could deal a lot more than 185 points of damage in 9 rounds.

So, 1 round of 3d10 + Wis, and 49 rounds of 2d10 + Wis, makes 101d10 + (50 x Wis + any other damage boosts) - on a thoroughly optimised Cleric, that's around 1350 damage.

This makes the very doubtful assumption that you can sustain the power for 50 rounds. I also have no idea where you're coming up with 1350 damage, that would assume a bonus of about +16 per attack, which means you'd have to come up with +7 beyond a +9 Wis bonus.

Aha, you cry: That won't kill Orcus, you pussy! But watch: the Seal of Binding stops the effects of any attacks. If a source of damage doesn't involve an attack against the target (Cloudkill, Slashing Wake, Wall of Ice etc) then the Seal does not prevent the damage.

So ongoing damage is not the effect of an attack? I think you're making a faulty interpretation of the semantics here. The specific text says "can't be affected by any attack other than this one." Unless someone can point me to a rule to the contrary, I'd call that means the target only takes damage from this power (of course, I would suspend saving throws so the target couldn't break out of an affect while ignoring it).

And even if you do allow ongoing damage to work, big O saves on a 5 or better, meaning it probably won't continue for long.

It becomes trivially easy to kill Orcus.

*snort* *laugh*

The big weak point of this combo is making the initial attack. I haven't looked through to see what is possible in terms of to-hit boosts, but I'm betting it's reasonably straight-forward. Step number 1 would be the Divine Oracle paragon path (allows you to roll twice for Will attacks and pick the best one).

No, the big weak point is the ongoing damage the cleric takes and the fact that the cleric can't sustain it if he or she is bloodied. Not to say it's not a really good ability, but it is not the Demon Prince-slayer you make it out to be.

 

[DarkJester]

Divine Regeneration grants regeneration to your highest ability score, not ability score modifier. But I agree, a party could probably do more in the equivalent time frame, albeit not with the same certainty.

 

[chaotix42]

The sample encounter with Orcus has him encountered with 2 atropals and 8 lich vestiges. Who thinks that just because Orcus is a solo you're fighting him 1-on-1?

 

[brehobit]

Seal of Binding should really have a max duration of like 5 rounds OR the cleric should be unable to heal while it is going. And "non-attacks" really shouldn't be doing damage either. That last one is how I'd rule the intent in any case.

Mark

 

[MarkChevallier]

Hi guys, I appreciate the feedback.

Some points:

The sample encounter with Orcus has him encountered with 2 atropals and 8 lich vestiges. Who thinks that just because Orcus is a solo you're fighting him 1-on-1?

You are correct to say that encountering Orcus (for example, any Solo will do) with assistants means that using this power you cannot kill him alone. But remember, you should still have your party with you; if they can hold off the enemy you should be okay. And you can always fly away invisibly, or teleport to the astral plane or something, and wait the fight out, all the while sustaining your deadly grasp on Orcus. (You can sustain a power even when not in sight of the target; for evidence, I submit the Invisibility power).

a party could probably do more in the equivalent time frame, albeit not with the same certainty.

This is very true; the point of the trick isn't to kill Orcus quickly. Just to do it with (provided the initial attack is made) ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY (as you point out). There's no risk, no save and no follow up attack needed. He's dead.

This makes the very doubtful assumption that you can sustain the power for 50 rounds. I also have no idea where you're coming up with 1350 damage, that would assume a bonus of about +16 per attack, which means you'd have to come up with +7 beyond a +9 Wis bonus.

A tricked out Wis Cleric has a Wis of 30, for a +10 bonus (the last +2 comes from Demigod). On top of that, they carry a +6 holy symbol. That's +16 per damage roll. It's probably trivially easy to scrape together some extra damage from other PCs, but the super-optimisation of this trick isn't my goal: just the demonstration that it is a very easily achieved, no-brainer tactic that will (again, contingent on your initial attack roll) seriously ruin any Solo's day.

And you have got your regeneration maths all wrong. The Cleric regenerates 30 per round and takes on average 27 damage. With regards to the Necrotic aura, I put to you that once he has begun the power, he walks out of the aura's range. He doesn't need to remain in range to sustain the power.

Unless someone can point me to a rule to the contrary, I'd call that means the target only takes damage from this power

Well, in 3.5, an attack was only considered an attack for rules purposes if it made an attack roll. I'm not sure if that's still the case; in any event, Slashing Wake is not an attack power, so could still be used to inflict craploads of damage on Orcus using an Arcane Gate teleport setup (say, 36 damage every round or so with the right arrangement).

Of course, any GM is free to Rule 0 this (ie, not use the RAW) and say that they don't allow any other damage to take place at all. Then you're doing 1350 damage with your power, which I still think is quite some bang for your buck.

I like how you describe it as being "simple"

1) Become a level 26 demigod.
2) Learn a cool power that does 25 pts of damage a round
3) Learn a second cool power that gives you a high regen
4) Stand within 10 squares of a Major solo monster.

I know, it isn't simple in the sense of "a level 3 gnome can do this". But it is simple in that it's a very straight forward mix of 2 powers. If I'm a Cleric at that level, I look at Seal of Binding, and I think "no save, cool, how do I circumvent the damage?" and there is a very easy way to achieve that sitting on a nearby epic destiny.

The existence of this combo is, again, disappointing. I think someone may have overlooked it at the playtesting stage. Really, any GM should fix the trick by Rule 0-ing the power to work in a slightly different way (as brehobit suggests), the same as they should for Cascade of Blades; it's just annoying that they have to.

 

[Archmage]

Need to check *my* math

Divine Regeneration grants regeneration to your highest ability score, not ability score modifier. But I agree, a party could probably do more in the equivalent time frame, albeit not with the same certainty.

Whoops, my bad on the regen amount. I also went completely blank on Demigod and the implement, which is silly considering I built a 30th level cleric yesterday. Ah well, mea culpa. That still ignores the dynamic of both the cleric's and Orcus' allies, which I would have to think would favor Orcus since the other PCs can't affect Orcus but nothing stops the bad guys from taking out the cleric. Again, the PCs working together to kill Orcus sure seem like a good bet to deal far more than 20 damage per round - I think that point still stands.

It's possible they should have had the cleric taking more damage than his target, because the divine regeneration seems obvious given the limited number of epic destinies in the initial rules. It does go back to the initial attack being the main issue, given Orcus' 49 Will.

 

[AuraSeer]

Well, in 3.5, an attack was only considered an attack for rules purposes if it made an attack roll.

I don't think that is correct. For purposes of things like invisibility and sanctuary at least, a spell or effect counted as an attack as long as it targeted an enemy or included an enemy in its area. So there was no loophole silliness like having fireball count as "not an attack."