another hitpoint variant, kinda.....

[noretoc]

A lot of people seem to have a problem with the whole idea of lota of HPs and fighting after many hits etc. I also have a problem with the AC-BAB thing. BAB goes up much much faster than AC for most. Here is an idea I have been thinking of, and I would love some input. especially hole I am missing.

Players have normal amounts of hps.

There are two acs. One the normal AC, and two the defense ac. WAIT! It isn't as complicated as it looks. Thier regular AC will be decided by armor, magic, dex, etc. But in addiditon to this there will be a bonuc to AC based on level, and class. If the attack roll is higher than the both AC damage is normal, representing a hit. The player gets hurt, bleeds, bruises, etc.

If the attack roll is lower than the normal AC, the attack misses. Hits armor, misses completly, etc.

If the attack is higher than the normal AC but lower than the defense ac, the damage is still apllied but as subdual, representing the ability of the victim to avoid a wound.

This keep the hp balance the same, as the same amount of damage will still drop the character. However, it add some other elements. It makes the char's experience mean something. It makes the character easier to heal if he has a high defense. It also has very little extra paper work to keep track of. The two ACs (the defense would be more like a bonus to AC, added to whatever ac the character is currently using.and the tracking od sudual which most charcters should have some experience with anyway.

It also add some options. Maybe a PC that heald subdual fast, or anything really that will add an element. Opinions?

 

[CombatWombat51]

Well, the bonus to AC based on class and level can be stolen straight from d20 Modern, Starwars d20, Wheel of Time, etc. Personally, I just slapped a Good, Medium, or Poor bonus (that progress like saves) on the classes. Fighters have a Good bonus, Rogues have a Medium, and Wizards have Poor.

The part of your idea that I really like is the idea of splitting solid hits and near-hits. Honestly, you could prolly just use a WP/VP system, again out of d20 Modern or Starwars d20. However, I like your idea, and I think it would take less work to convert the existing D&D rules. I think the downside would be that there'd be slightly more thought when rolling for attacks, but I think that would be worth it.

 

[CerberusAOD]

So...
Normal AC: 10 + class + armor + dex + misc.
Touch AC: 10 + class + dex + misc.

If an attack is => Touch AC, damage dealt is subdual. Attacks dealing subdual damage are ignored.
Above the
If an attack is => Normal AC, damage dealt is real. Attacks dealing subdual damage act normally.

I think I'll use that. I was going to use WP/VP, class-based armor bonuses, with armor acting as DR for the WP...but this is a lot less complex, yet still allows non-penetrating hits to be useful.

 

[noretoc]

So...
Normal AC: 10 + class + armor + dex + misc.
Touch AC: 10 + class + dex + misc.

If an attack is => Touch AC, damage dealt is subdual. Attacks dealing subdual damage are ignored.
Above the
If an attack is => Normal AC, damage dealt is real. Attacks dealing subdual damage act normally.

I think I'll use that. I was going to use WP/VP, class-based armor bonuses, with armor acting as DR for the WP...but this is a lot less complex, yet still allows non-penetrating hits to be useful.

A little different that what I was saying. Another reason I am going to try this out, is that I am running a low magic game. Magic armor will be hard to find, so the armor bonus for an AC isn't going to be that high. The defense bonus will make up for some of that. I am trying to put more emphasis on what the characters can do rather than what they have.

Great idea on the "good", "med", and "poor" advancement. I think I'll use it. I will probably give rogues good though, as they have a great knack of gettin out of the way.

 

[Jeph]

Note that adding a class bonus to touch AC makes ray and missile like spells drop drastically in effectiveness. Perhaps you should also give them a boost--ie, something like +1 to the attack roll/2 caster levels.

 

[CerberusAOD]

Note that adding a class bonus to touch AC makes ray and missile like spells drop drastically in effectiveness. Perhaps you should also give them a boost--ie, something like +1 to the attack roll/2 caster levels.

Noretoc: what exactly were you saying then (aside from my addition of the subdual damage bit)?
Jeph: adding a class bonus to touch AC does drop their effectiveness, but only in games where magic armor and shields are easy to find. In a game where a 20th-level fighter using expertise couldn't beet a 30 AC by the normal rules, the situation changes drasticly.
(146 Str, 14 Dex:
BAB +22, probably +24 or better with a certain weapon, and at best an AC of 24 (10+2+9+3), at best 29 using expertise, 30 vs. an opponent using dodge)
Also, rogues are perfectly fine with the medium (2/5HD+3) progression. Remember that they have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and chosen special abilities that can help out their survival.

 

[noretoc]

Noretoc: what exactly were you saying then (aside from my addition of the subdual damage bit)?
Jeph: adding a class bonus to touch AC does drop their effectiveness, but only in games where magic armor and shields are easy to find. In a game where a 20th-level fighter using expertise couldn't beet a 30 AC by the normal rules, the situation changes drasticly.
(146 Str, 14 Dex:
BAB +22, probably +24 or better with a certain weapon, and at best an AC of 24 (10+2+9+3), at best 29 using expertise, 30 vs. an opponent using dodge)
Also, rogues are perfectly fine with the medium (2/5HD+3) progression. Remember that they have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and chosen special abilities that can help out their survival.

In your example, whether or not you take subdual or real depends on your armor bonus. In mine it is dependant on the class bonus.

As for the defense adding to touch AC I an thinking about that. Not sure how I am going to work it.

 

[A'koss]

I just wanted to say that you've proposed an interesting idea... I'm running a low-magic game myself and use class-based AC bonuses as well (though this bonus is impeded by armor). Must think on it more...

Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[nharwell]

I tried something similar in a couple of stand-alone games I ran for my players. I basically used the WP/VP system from Star Wars/Spycraft, but instead of having crits do damage to WPs, I said the following:

Attacks that beat "normal" AC do damage to VPs (Hit Points)
Attacks that beat AC+ BAB (the "Defense stat") do damage to VPs and WPs.

I liked this approach, as I didn't have to change much else to make this work (unlike some of my other attempts). Also, I didn't have to use a class-based defense bonus to AC which, in a normal D&D game, can make ACs skyrocket.

 

[CerberusAOD]

In your example, whether or not you take subdual or real depends on your armor bonus. In mine it is dependant on the class bonus.

As for the defense adding to touch AC I an thinking about that. Not sure how I am going to work it.

If you have a class bonus that is applied to one AC (DAC), armor and magic applied to the other (NAC), dex applied to both (it'd be silly otherwise)...
you mention three cases:
Attack < NAC: miss
Attack => NAC & < DAC: subdual
Attack => NAC & => DAC: normal hit.
Now, is the defense AC the normal AC with a class bonus applied? I was reading it as if it were not, but rather with a class bonus replacing the armor bonus, in which case there is a situation missing.
If it is added to the armor bonus...it doesn't make much sense, and seems backwards. Whether you get hit or not should be based on the class bonus, with the armor determining what you take from it, and maybe Dexterity. You are trying to avoid the hit and the wound with or without armor.
Your ability to avoid the attack/wound comes first (10 + dex? + class bonus), and then the armor comes in and helps soak the hit after that fails (10 + dex + class bonus + armor), unless the hit is too powerful or aimed too well (normal damage).

Note I use the touch attack part because it is needed for normal D&D magic w/o magical defense items. All those magic armor bonuses affect touch attacks (or at least enough of them do), and if you remove them, the spellcasters become very powerful. The class bonuses in other games, mainly WoT, since I have the book for it, have a maximum progression of +1/2 per level...which matches up perfectly with wiz/sor BAB.

I'm using reference progressions of 2 + 1/3lvl, 3 + 2/5lvl, and 4 + 1/2lvl. If armor is counted in the AC, the +2,+3 and +4 bonuses can be removed, as then fighter-types have the advantage of medium and heavy armor proficiencies, and that armor is included in the AC, where in WoT at least, it isn't, unless it makes the AC higher than w/o it. The fighter will still get to a point where he can hit someone of the same power easily, but when the most possible damage (not counting crits) is 2d6 + 10 (18 Str, Specialization (Greatsword)), it's not so bad.