Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya matey!

I've noticed the Tarot influence sprinkled throughout your work.

Mostly revolving around the angels it must be said (and in fact with regards the illustrations themselves generally only the Kyriotates and Sandalphon are Tarot inspired). The only other two illustrations I can think of that draw some of their inspiration from the cards are the aforementioned Akalich and, one I suspect you didn't get (?)...the Diamond Leviathan.

You should be as it appears the Bestiary is ripe for a release.

I still, to this day cannot fathom how it has taken me this long.

On another note, I noticed that www.classicmarvel.com has posted several of the original TSR downloads on the site (most everything). I've compiled most in pdf format. If you like I could send them to you.

I suspect I already own all of those. But thanks anyway dude.

 

[Anabstercorian]

I still, to this day cannot fathom how it has taken me this long.

I'm trying to write a novella right now, and trust me, you have more sympathy from me than you've had in a while. Stupid Angband.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

just to let you know that I updated the website with the stuff I tried to update last night. Basically, interior illustrations 27-34 (of 36). The Amidah Vampire just needs the upper half of its background sorted and the Nexus Dragon just needs its tail fixed (you'll understand when you see it).

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/IHpreview6.htm

...and I appreciate the empathy Anabstercorian mate.

 

[Fieari]

Hey, Upper Krust... a week ago or so there was a thread in the main forum about whether or not Lavos, from Chrono Trigger, was a tarrasque. I thought the resemblence was similar myself, except that I always pictured Lavos as being the size it appears on the map screen... that is to say, as being comparative to the size of an entire city by itself. So I applied the Brobdignagian and Teratoid templates to a tarrasque in order to make a Macro-Large one, and came of with this monster: http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/Brobdignagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque

The fact that it's so devestatingly powerful kinda dissapoints me a little though, as it becomes an impossible encounter for anything less than a party of four 256 level characters, and even then it's horrific. Epic literature, however, regularly has heroes fighting such massive creatures though... I mean, like in Chrono Trigger. But the heroes of Chrono Trigger didn't seem to be anywhere near the power of even a single level 256 character. At their peak, I'd hardly put them much into the epic levels.

Any thoughts for how to take a massive massive massive creature like that, and still make it possible for less immortal heros to fight it? I suppose you could use stats for a smaller creature, and just DESCRIBE it as being that big, but...

Also, didn't you come up with rules for really huge creatures attacking much much smaller ones? I seem to remember something about having it make an area attack when sufficiently large, but I can't find anything like that in the IH preview.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey, Upper Krust...

Hiya mate!

a week ago or so there was a thread in the main forum about whether or not Lavos, from Chrono Trigger, was a tarrasque.

I remember the thread...although I must say I am not familiar with Lavos/Chrono Trigger.

I thought the resemblence was similar myself, except that I always pictured Lavos as being the size it appears on the map screen... that is to say, as being comparative to the size of an entire city by itself. So I applied the Brobdignagian and Teratoid templates to a tarrasque in order to make a Macro-Large one,

About 2 1/3 miles in size. Ouch.

and came of with this monster: http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/Brobdignagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque

Do you mind if I put a link to it on the website?

The fact that it's so devestatingly powerful kinda dissapoints me a little though, as it becomes an impossible encounter for anything less than a party of four 256 level characters, and even then it's horrific.

I have the CRs wrong in the Bestiary remember.

Epic literature, however, regularly has heroes fighting such massive creatures though...

...regularly?

I can think of a few from comics, but generally you rarely see anything bigger than a few hundred feet.

I don't recall anything from Final Fantasy much over 100 feet (if that), In Shadows of the Colossus, I suspect they top out at a few hundred feet. I already gave my analysis of the creatures from God of War in my review of the game on my website.

I mean, like in Chrono Trigger. But the heroes of Chrono Trigger didn't seem to be anywhere near the power of even a single level 256 character. At their peak, I'd hardly put them much into the epic levels.

Thats suggests that Lavos was the Tarrasque, rather than a Brobdingnagian, Teratoid Tarrasque.

Any thoughts for how to take a massive massive massive creature like that, and still make it possible for less immortal heros to fight it? I suppose you could use stats for a smaller creature, and just DESCRIBE it as being that big, but...

Well firstly I would question your reasoning for wanting it that big in the first place. With great size comes great responsibility...or words to that effect.

I'm not sure what to do for the best, you could always inform your players that its fear aura makes them think its as big as a city.

Also, didn't you come up with rules for really huge creatures attacking much much smaller ones? I seem to remember something about having it make an area attack when sufficiently large, but I can't find anything like that in the IH preview.

Those are in the Unofficial Bestiary Release. I have revised and simplified them for the official release.

 

[Fieari]

Feel free to link to it.

I suppose the Chrono Trigger team could have been fighting a tarrasque with a couple added abilities... the Manifest DNA one for certain, but it'd also need two spell like abilities... a short range "Destruction Rains from the Heavens" and a global ranged version. In the game, when Lavos erupted on judgement day (in the year 1999, in fact) it seared the surface of the entire planet.

What I found most interesting though, was that simply by increasing the tarrasque's size to Macro-Large, it practically gained the shorter ranged version of the same effect (seen when fighting Lavos more personally) for free... via Improved Whirlwind Attack and it's 2 mile melee attack range.

Having a fear aura make players think the creature they're fighting is much larger is a very cool idea by the way, and I think I'll make use of it in my own games.

As for why I want something that big... well, mostly it's just a case of the imagery. Lavos is basically this huge spikey sphere that rains death and destruction. I suppose one could do with something slightly smaller though. Maybe only the size of a skyscraper, instead of the whole city.

Figuring out the stats was fun though. Interestingly enough, it seems to me that it has revealed yet another flaw in the official epic level system, in that Wizards' is definitely anthrocentric when it comes to size. I mean, when you're this huge, you have OODLES of skill points, but a balance DC of 120 is all you need to be able to -stand on a cloud-? Hm. Perhaps really really huge creatures should get a penalty to DEX based skill checks to make them have to spend those oodles of points to be able to do such things? Perhaps a division-based penalty? Something to think about.

Now I'm itching to stat up the Great A'tuin, the Star Turtle from Discworld fame... and the four elephants as well. (A'tuin swims through space carrying four elephants on its back, and on the backs of those elphants is the Discworld, an entire planet that just happens to be flat)

 

[Rhuarc]

Hey UK,

most of the time I follow the thread in silence but now I've found something to contribute

The dark picture of the Akalich is quite fine but I would prefer to see him with a more "shadowy", flowing body. At the moment he has a more or less quadratic face and a very straight body form.

Just my opinion, hope you get the book finished ASAP and keep up the great work

 

[Farealmer3]

"holds 5 magic rings to the sky"
EARTH!
FIRE!
WIND!
WATER!
HEART!
GO UPPER KRUST!

I need your help, there is a debate at the dicefreaks boards about whether or not your nuclear blast stats are accurate i need you to go tell them what's what.

It's here
nonbelievers

It may take a while to get to it(page 12-13)

Remember
The power is yours!

 

[Eversius]

Farealmer wins this thread.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

Feel free to link to it.

Thanks.

I suppose the Chrono Trigger team could have been fighting a tarrasque with a couple added abilities... the Manifest DNA one for certain, but it'd also need two spell like abilities... a short range "Destruction Rains from the Heavens" and a global ranged version. In the game, when Lavos erupted on judgement day (in the year 1999, in fact) it seared the surface of the entire planet.

Wouldn't that have killed everyone? Or is that what the Chrono-Trigger (Time Travel?) aspects are for?

What I found most interesting though, was that simply by increasing the tarrasque's size to Macro-Large, it practically gained the shorter ranged version of the same effect (seen when fighting Lavos more personally) for free... via Improved Whirlwind Attack and it's 2 mile melee attack range.

Having a fear aura make players think the creature they're fighting is much larger is a very cool idea by the way, and I think I'll make use of it in my own games.

Glad you like it.

As for why I want something that big... well, mostly it's just a case of the imagery. Lavos is basically this huge spikey sphere that rains death and destruction. I suppose one could do with something slightly smaller though. Maybe only the size of a skyscraper, instead of the whole city.

One thing I notice from comics is that artists tend to 'rein in' the really big monsters to better facilitate interaction between them and normal sized characters...which sort of parallels what I am trying to do with the IH.

Figuring out the stats was fun though. Interestingly enough, it seems to me that it has revealed yet another flaw in the official epic level system, in that Wizards' is definitely anthrocentric when it comes to size. I mean, when you're this huge, you have OODLES of skill points, but a balance DC of 120 is all you need to be able to -stand on a cloud-? Hm. Perhaps really really huge creatures should get a penalty to DEX based skill checks to make them have to spend those oodles of points to be able to do such things? Perhaps a division-based penalty? Something to think about.

Thats something I have been working on sorting out for the IH (although alas it won't be ready in time for this Volume of the Bestiary).

My current idea is that perhaps you shouldn't gain any skill points after 20th-level/20 Hit Dice. Supernatural effects (from using skills) would kick in at DC 50 with perhaps each leap of +10 representing an extra spell level. But this is just brainstorming at this stage.

Now I'm itching to stat up the Great A'tuin, the Star Turtle from Discworld fame... and the four elephants as well. (A'tuin swims through space carrying four elephants on its back, and on the backs of those elphants is the Discworld, an entire planet that just happens to be flat)

I presume the Great A'tuin is Pratchetts vision of Bahamut as it were.