Another Immortals Handbook thread

[CRGreathouse]

Okay I am just going to briefly explain the changes to spellcasting that allow for things like destroying a planet at about 100th-level. I wasn't going to reveal it, but I think its looking increasingly like I will have to rely on dimensional magic for the really big effects. So it'll be interesting to hear your opinions.

Anyway, the idea was really simple. What if, stacked metamagic multiplied an effect rather than added to it.

eg. 3rd-level Fireball with Empower Spell x8* (+16 levels for a 19th-level spell) would deal: 10d6 x16 (10d6 x2 x2 x2 x2) = 160d6 damage.

*With Metamagic Freedom.

Why 160d6 and not 256d6 (10*1.5^8 dice, rounded to the nearest) or 244d6 (10 * 1.5, riound down, * 1.5, round down,...)? For that matter why not 270d6 (round to nearest each time)?

Now the logical aspect is this.

Imagine if you create a 6th-level spell that mimics fireball with the Widen Spell attached.

Fireball = 3rd level, Widen Spell = +3 levels. So its logical that you could create a 6th-level spell that was like fireball, only double the area of effect, right!?

Lets call this spell Greater Fireball.

Now if we apply the Widen Spell feat to Greater Fireball, the area will double.

Fireball (3rd) = 20 ft. radius
Greater Fireball (or Widened Fireball, both 6th) = 40 ft. radius
Widened x2 Fireball (9th) = 60 ft. radius (if a double, double equals a triple)
Widened Greater Fireball (9th) = 80 ft. radius

So the question is, should a double, double equal a triple, or a quadruple? It seems to me that you can keep creating spells and then doubling them, effectively mimicking the quadruple approach.

If you created a spell called Empowered fireball that had the effects of an Empowered fireball (5th level, 15d6 damage) it would be better than the Empowered fireball, since its save DC would be higher. That's why this step-up method comes up with more powerful results.

In the end, it's all about power and potential abusability -- what's best for the game?

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

Galactus would be saved by his spell resistance. Otherwise he would get vapourised, create some sort of damaging spell that you don't get SR against and its adios muchachos.

But it still wouldn't cure the problem of the planet being destroyed in the first place, which would rob the G-man of a hard earned meal. BTW, I like the fact that the uber-damaging spells like kiloton don't allow for spell resistance. How would spell resistance that is limited to one's person (assuming moderate size) protect you from all the consequences of a spell like that?

Anyway, the idea was really simple. What if, stacked metamagic multiplied an effect rather than added to it.

I think this is akin to saying that metamagic should work like compound rather than simple interest.

This seems cool to me, albeit potentially very destructive. The biggest question I have with it relates to mechanics and is probably strictly limited to campaigns in the 30th-150th or so level range.

First, it would seem that spellcasters would more quickly begin to outstrip non-spellcasters in power unless there are new feats created to counterbalance "compounding metamagic."

Second, it would seem like the supernatural abilities of creatures, which are ostensibly limited to its hit dice in terms of dice of effect, might largely be obviated. I would hate to think that "flavor creatures" would eschew their supernatural abilities in favor of casting only the most destructive spell it could metagame. Of course, if the supernatural ability were quickened then it would still become utilized, it just wouldn't be what characters feared most.

All that said I'm not bothered by it at all, but those would be my two fears as a DM.

Thanks for sharing it.

 

[Knight Otu]

My solution to this (work in progress) is to turn spell resistance into a sort of spell dampening/anti-magic type of spell-level DR.

eg. Divide SR by 5 to gauge how many levels of anti-magic you apply to a spell effect.

IOW, if you cast a 15th-level spell at a creature with SR 25, it would effectively be a 10th-level spell for purposes of save, damage, and duration, if applicable? That's a really cool idea. Kind of harks back to 1E/2E magic resistance.

Yes, its along those lines I am working on.

Interesting... *Makes a mental note to remember that idea*

*thinks better of it, and makes a physical note*

 

[Zoatebix]

Thanks, most interesting, this guy definately knows his stuff. They should have hired him to do d20 Modern.

My thoughts exactly. He must not have been interested. I did find his personal webpage and some stuff about him: a bio (http://www3.telus.net/dlpulver/about.htm) and list of published works (http://www3.telus.net/dlpulver/published.htm).

I totally forgot that he did GURPS Ultra-Tech. Yowza. The GURPS Vehicles book stuck out in my mind because it is so quintessentially GURPS-y (you need a calculator or a scratch piece of paper to design a wheelbarrow's stats) and so seemingly different from his BESM and d20 Mecha work.


On to epic magic: I really like the rapid expansion of capabilities that your basic change offers, but CRGreathouse's point about save DCs and metamagic is valid. Historian's point about HD-based design parameters for creatures is a mighty big concern, too. Maybe a sensable re-tooling of Heighten spell is all we need to make it all come together, but I don't think it'll be quite that simple. The "glass jaw" problem is the one that really gets me.

It seems that I've run into this problem with another kind of high-powered gaming... Yeah! White Wolf's Exalted had to specifically point out to players that Exalts need to pick up a few good defensive Charms or they're toast! Smart play, mundane defenses, and the basic task resolution system wouldn't save them from supernatural might (or a group of well trained and impeccably armed mortals).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey CRGreathouse mate!

Why 160d6 and not 256d6 (10*1.5^8 dice, rounded to the nearest) or 244d6 (10 * 1.5, riound down, * 1.5, round down,...)? For that matter why not 270d6 (round to nearest each time)?

Well for the same simplicity inherant in damage increases by size.

If you created a spell called Empowered fireball that had the effects of an Empowered fireball (5th level, 15d6 damage) it would be better than the Empowered fireball, since its save DC would be higher. That's why this step-up method comes up with more powerful results.

Good point.

In the end, it's all about power and potential abusability -- what's best for the game?

Exactly.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya mate!

But it still wouldn't cure the problem of the planet being destroyed in the first place, which would rob the G-man of a hard earned meal. BTW, I like the fact that the uber-damaging spells like kiloton don't allow for spell resistance. How would spell resistance that is limited to one's person (assuming moderate size) protect you from all the consequences of a spell like that?

That could have went either way with the Kiloton spell to be fair. But you could argue that the spell only splits the atom and the explosion is a natural byproduct of that.

I think this is akin to saying that metamagic should work like compound rather than simple interest.

This seems cool to me, albeit potentially very destructive. The biggest question I have with it relates to mechanics and is probably strictly limited to campaigns in the 30th-150th or so level range.

First, it would seem that spellcasters would more quickly begin to outstrip non-spellcasters in power unless there are new feats created to counterbalance "compounding metamagic."

Well I had the opportunity of balancing it with metamartial feats* (which can also benefit from either the double-double = triple or double-double = quadruple approaches). So obviously the former is more balanced with things now.

*in tandem with Metamartial Freedom.

Second, it would seem like the supernatural abilities of creatures, which are ostensibly limited to its hit dice in terms of dice of effect, might largely be obviated. I would hate to think that "flavor creatures" would eschew their supernatural abilities in favor of casting only the most destructive spell it could metagame. Of course, if the supernatural ability were quickened then it would still become utilized, it just wouldn't be what characters feared most.

That was a possibility, but there were substantial mitigating factors required to fuel these spells.

All that said I'm not bothered by it at all, but those would be my two fears as a DM.

Thanks for sharing it.

Well if I had thought I was still going to be using it I probably wouldn't have posted it. So its more food for thought at this point.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Well for the same simplicity inherant in damage increases by size.

Yeah, but that method ends up with about half the damage of the other.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Knight Otu matey!

hope you have been keeping well?

Interesting... *Makes a mental note to remember that idea*

*thinks better of it, and makes a physical note*

Oi! Cheeky!

Fortunately it won't be necessary now.

You can still have spells that can blow up planets, but now you need to be a 'tad' closer to 2,000th-level.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Zoatebix mate!

My thoughts exactly. He must not have been interested. I did find his personal webpage and some stuff about him: a bio (http://www3.telus.net/dlpulver/about.htm) and list of published works (http://www3.telus.net/dlpulver/published.htm).

Thanks for that.

I totally forgot that he did GURPS Ultra-Tech. Yowza. The GURPS Vehicles book stuck out in my mind because it is so quintessentially GURPS-y (you need a calculator or a scratch piece of paper to design a wheelbarrow's stats) and so seemingly different from his BESM and d20 Mecha work.

Thats some pedigree hes got there.

On to epic magic: I really like the rapid expansion of capabilities that your basic change offers, but CRGreathouse's point about save DCs and metamagic is valid.

Absolutely.

Historian's point about HD-based design parameters for creatures is a mighty big concern, too.

Agreed, although that problem was lessened by the impending mitigating factors. But obviously even I 'cannae change the laws of physics* cap'n'

*Or in this case design parameters.

Maybe a sensable re-tooling of Heighten spell is all we need to make it all come together, but I don't think it'll be quite that simple. The "glass jaw" problem is the one that really gets me.

I don't think it can be made to work. I was drawn into this fools errand because the system actually functions well up to about 50th-level, although after that it really starts to skyrocket. I must have been designing this one wearing rose tinted spectacles.

It seems that I've run into this problem with another kind of high-powered gaming... Yeah! White Wolf's Exalted had to specifically point out to players that Exalts need to pick up a few good defensive Charms or they're toast! Smart play, mundane defenses, and the basic task resolution system wouldn't save them from supernatural might (or a group of well trained and impeccably armed mortals).

I don't want to fall into that trap naturally.

 

[Knight Otu]

Hey Knight Otu matey!

hope you have been keeping well?

Well, if you've looked at my avatar, I've turned a bit more boney
I'm reasonably well, though the two PbP games I DM are a bit of a headache, especially as both are currently in a combat (juggling 9 PCs, 2 canines on their side, and 14 kobolds, 2 of them spellcasters in one of them... what was I thinking?! ). Also, I've been made a moderator for the Gaming Action forums.

Oi! Cheeky!

Should I ever use it, you'll get credit.