Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Yeah, but that method ends up with about half the damage of the other.

When you can cast "Death Star Superlaser" you don't care if the opponent makes his save for half damage!

 

[Knight Otu]

The GURPS Vehicles book stuck out in my mind because it is so quintessentially GURPS-y (you need a calculator or a scratch piece of paper to design a wheelbarrow's stats) and so seemingly different from his BESM and d20 Mecha work.

Would it be inappropriate to say I LOVE GURPS Vehicles? Honestly, a book in that vein should be a must-exist for the d20 Modern/Future line.

 

[Upper_Krust]

To CRGreathouse.

Hiya mate, do you still have a link to the thread with all the epic monsters on it? Or even have the list itself saved?

 

[Anabstercorian]

Finish Your Work, You So And So.

 

[Sledge]

Did I hear someone say playtesting? My level 42 (still) semiactive campaign would love playtesting.

Oh and for the record do not use fireball as your baseline for damage. Use the theoretical damage caps that where put in place when third edition was designed.

 

[Fieari]

I'd volunteer my group to playtest, but they're wallowing around 20th level right now. They keep spending XP instead of leveling up. On the other hand, I've been considering running an example "Really High Level Game" at an upcomming gaming con, since interest in the subject seems to have been rising recently.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Hiya mate, do you still have a link to the thread with all the epic monsters on it? Or even have the list itself saved?

Here's the most updated version. It's not the version I first posted here, but it has more monsters and a prettier format.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2431689#post2431689

 

[Kerrick]

Anyway, the idea was really simple. What if, stacked metamagic multiplied an effect rather than added to it.

That's it? That's all there is to it? Wow.

eg. 3rd-level Fireball with Empower Spell x8* (+16 levels for a 19th-level spell) would deal: 10d6 x16 (10d6 x2 x2 x2 x2) = 160d6 damage.

*With Metamagic Freedom.

Instead of 10d6 x5 = 50d6

CR is right - it would be 256d6. For a 19th level spell, the cap (if we're using caps) would be 50d6 (when I posted that quote, I was wondering where that had come from, but now I know). Course, with the existing epic system (or even the one I use), damage caps pretty much go out the window anyway, but the epic system has a sort of built-in balance, in that getting it that high jacks the DC waaay up (making that spell as an epic would be somewhere around DC 510, before mitigation).

And speaking of mitigation: you mentioned you have mitigating factors. It'd be kind of interesting to see how you use those with a system that would work for all levels.

Now if we apply the Widen Spell feat to Greater Fireball, the area will double.

Fireball (3rd) = 20 ft. radius
Greater Fireball (or Widened Fireball, both 6th) = 40 ft. radius
Widened x2 Fireball (9th) = 60 ft. radius (if a double, double equals a triple)
Widened Greater Fireball (9th) = 80 ft. radius

You know, I've always wondered what math system WotC was using, where a double double equals a triple instead of a quadruple. This example amply illustrates the point, especially with CR's comment about save DCs. Why make a really big 3rd-level fireball when I can make the same size fireball at 9th level, using the same slot, and have a better chance of doing damage? The only reason people don't make greater fireballs is that it's silly - you can do the same thing with a feat.

I don't think it can be made to work. I was drawn into this fools errand because the system actually functions well up to about 50th-level, although after that it really starts to skyrocket. I must have been designing this one wearing rose tinted spectacles.

Do you mean 50th character level or 50th spell level?

I noticed that you're using damage spells as examples. What about the odd spells? Blowing up a planet is all well and good, but epic magic is about more than that, IMO. How would I, frex, create a tesseract using your system? Or transform the caster into a lich? Or wrench a castle from the ground and make it fly? These are harder to adjudicate simply using metamagic feats.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Re: Playtesting. That would have been to help iron out problems in the magic system, which I no longer have.

...and thanks for the list CRGreathouse.

That's it? That's all there is to it? Wow.

I told you it was simple didn't I.

CR is right - it would be 256d6.

Yes, but a multiplying x1.5 increase is much too complicated. The staggered doubling is much simpler and easier.

For a 19th level spell, the cap (if we're using caps) would be 50d6 (when I posted that quote, I was wondering where that had come from, but now I know).

Interesting. Although, worth noting that Meteor Swarm already breaks damage cap limitations.

Course, with the existing epic system (or even the one I use), damage caps pretty much go out the window anyway, but the epic system has a sort of built-in balance, in that getting it that high jacks the DC waaay up (making that spell as an epic would be somewhere around DC 510, before mitigation).

And speaking of mitigation: you mentioned you have mitigating factors. It'd be kind of interesting to see how you use those with a system that would work for all levels.

Wouldn't it.

You know, I've always wondered what math system WotC was using, where a double double equals a triple instead of a quadruple. This example amply illustrates the point, especially with CR's comment about save DCs. Why make a really big 3rd-level fireball when I can make the same size fireball at 9th level, using the same slot, and have a better chance of doing damage? The only reason people don't make greater fireballs is that it's silly - you can do the same thing with a feat.

Exactly, its always better to set the lowest common denomiator for an effect where possible.

Do you mean 50th character level or 50th spell level?

50th-level character.

I noticed that you're using damage spells as examples. What about the odd spells? Blowing up a planet is all well and good, but epic magic is about more than that, IMO. How would I, frex, create a tesseract using your system? Or transform the caster into a lich? Or wrench a castle from the ground and make it fly? These are harder to adjudicate simply using metamagic feats.

You would be surprised how simple it is really. The basis for 95% of spell effects already exists within the framework of non-epic spellcasting. Then all you need do is introduce the lowest common denominator for these new effects as new spells.

 

[Kerrick]

Re: Playtesting. That would have been to help iron out problems in the magic system, which I no longer have.

Wait a minute! You can't dangle the possibility of getting to playtest this in front us and then take it away! That's, like, evil and stuff.

Interesting. Although, worth noting that Meteor Swarm already breaks damage cap limitations.

No it doesn't. Max damage (assuming you don't get hit by the meteors) is 24d6. The impact damage is kind of incidental, since it only happens if someone's got bad luck and gets in the way.

Wouldn't it.

Tease.

You would be surprised how simple it is really. The basis for 95% of spell effects already exists within the framework of non-epic spellcasting. Then all you need do is introduce the lowest common denominator for these new effects as new spells.

Well yeah... I mean, that's how I came up with the elements (seeds) that I use for my system. Between the 30 elements, I can make just about any spell you want, with very few ad hoc factors (that's one thing I hated about the epic system - too many ad hoc factors), including the ones I was asking about (I just wanted to see how you would handle them).