Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick dude!

Wait a minute! You can't dangle the possibility of getting to playtest this in front us and then take it away! That's, like, evil and stuff.

Its probably more chaotic neutral.

No it doesn't. Max damage (assuming you don't get hit by the meteors) is 24d6. The impact damage is kind of incidental, since it only happens if someone's got bad luck and gets in the way.

Yes, but lets assume you do get hit by the meteors, its 8d6 + 24d6 = 32d6

Tease.

Guilty as charged.

Well yeah... I mean, that's how I came up with the elements (seeds) that I use for my system. Between the 30 elements, I can make just about any spell you want, with very few ad hoc factors (that's one thing I hated about the epic system - too many ad hoc factors), including the ones I was asking about (I just wanted to see how you would handle them).

I'm sure the principles are somewhat similar.

 

[Sledge]

Okay I correct myself. Use the max damage that should have been put in place. For instance we all know that a 3rd level spell should do less than a 4th, but yet the same damage cap. So what do we do? Up the dice size as well. Progression as follows:
5d4, 10d4, 10d6, 15d6, 15d8, 20d8, 20d10, 25d10, 25d12. What do you think, am I too insane? Seriously though there needs to be a better system in place here for regulating damage. Something that make mechanical sense.

 

[Kerrick]

Yes, but lets assume you do get hit by the meteors, its 8d6 + 24d6 = 32d6

Okay. As 9th level spells go, though, it's not as badly overpowered as some we could name - gate, disjunction, implosion, wish. Gate would be fine if it just made a 2-way gate to any plane - I'd drop it to 8th level, halve the XP cost, and it'd be good to go. Disjunction I made epic. Implosion - kill 1 creature/level? Epic. Wish... I don't know what to do with that, but DM who interprets things literally is a good enough limitation (along with the 5K XP).

5d4, 10d4, 10d6, 15d6, 15d8, 20d8, 20d10, 25d10, 25d12. What do you think, am I too insane? Seriously though there needs to be a better system in place here for regulating damage. Something that make mechanical sense.

Except that different spells use different damage types - magic missile uses d4, most energy spells use d6, etc. If you made it a straight number of dice (3rd level - 10, 4th - 12, 5th - 15, etc.) that might work; getting rid of the caps altogether is another viable solution. I never saw the need for caps in any case, but some people point to swarms of magic missiles dealing huge amounts of unavoidable damage. Okay then, drop the damage to 1d4. Our group has a couple spells that protect from force damage; shield has a chance of negating magic missiles, as does a brooch of shielding.

 

[Wolv0rine]

However each Pantheon has a mirror opposite that allows you to simply swop the alignments around. So for instance the Greek Pantheon is led by the Chaotic Good Zeus, whereas its shadow counterpart (the occult term for this is favarshi); the Roman Pantheon is led by the Lawful Evil Jupiter.

I know this is about a month old, but I just got around to reading through this thread (distractions, distractions) up to this point, and I wanted to stop and point out that this is a brilliant idea. As someone whose campaign world began with, and was created around, the gods (illustrating my deep interest in the topic) I love this.

 

[Shariell]

Jupiter LE?!? Is this only an example, or did you intend really Jupiter to be LE?
I don't see any concrete basis or any "historical" reference to say that.
In fact, the Greek and the Roman pantheon are nearly the same with differents names (the greek culture has largely influenced the Roman one).
Jupiter is no way LE... Asmodeus is LE.

 

[Wolv0rine]

IOW, if you cast a 15th-level spell at a creature with SR 25, it would effectively be a 10th-level spell for purposes of save, damage, and duration, if applicable? That's a really cool idea. Kind of harks back to 1E/2E magic resistance.

The only problem I see is that you're violating the KISS rule (you know, Keep It Simple, Stupid) - one change requires another change, which requires another, and so on. This would be great for an alternate system, like something you'd see in Unearthed Arcana, but if you say, "I've got this infinitely scaling system for spells, but you have to use this new SR system too," that might not go over as well. But, like you said, it's a work in progress.

Kerr, Kerr, Kerr... have I taught you nothing lo these past few years? If the idea's good, and the execution is elegant, there's nothing in the world wrong with a reasonable amount of changes-supporting changes. KIIC I say.. Keep It Internally Consistent.

(And I'm so sure that even this close to the end of the thread, I'm going to encounter at least something or another that'll make posting before I get to the thread's end seem inane)

 

[Wolv0rine]

You know, I've always wondered what math system WotC was using, where a double double equals a triple instead of a quadruple. This example amply illustrates the point, especially with CR's comment about save DCs. Why make a really big 3rd-level fireball when I can make the same size fireball at 9th level, using the same slot, and have a better chance of doing damage? The only reason people don't make greater fireballs is that it's silly - you can do the same thing with a feat.

Oh, I don't know. I'm still slightly fond of the Fireball series of spells I have lying around (a degree of Fireball for every level, from 1-9). Although I grant you, those spells predate 3E by nearly a decade.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Glad you liked the idea Wolv0rine dude!

Hey Shariell matey!

Jupiter LE?!? Is this only an example, or did you intend really Jupiter to be LE? I don't see any concrete basis or any "historical" reference to say that.
In fact, the Greek and the Roman pantheon are nearly the same with differents names (the greek culture has largely influenced the Roman one).
Jupiter is no way LE... Asmodeus is LE.

This may sound weird, but I don't really care about the gods alignments that much, so the bottom line is that I am going to use alignment for my purposes, not bust my hump trying to determine the ethics of such mythological figures, an endeavour which is unlikely to result in everyone agreeing with me anyway.

Thats not to say I don't want to do them justice, of course I do, but I want to show that you don't have to be beholden to the myth alone, because when you introduce the gods to your campaign you add to their legend. Hercules never battled Cthulhu, Songoku never had a showdown with Demogorgon, Thor never introduced Tiamat to Mjolnir...but in someones campaign they might. So you can't say that the gods are simply a measure of the meagre handful of stories we have on them.

As for whether Zeus is Chaotic Good and Jupiter is Lawful Evil, who can say for sure, although the Ancient Greeks prized their independance and the Romans tried to subdue the world. The cultures were in some way opposites, so why not their gods.

Incidently the idea of shadow pantheons was inspired by the Zoroastrian word favarshi.

eg. Ahriman is the favarshi of Ormuzd.

I thought to myself how people are always going on about how the books get the alignments of the gods wrong, Odin was a bloodthirsty battle god, hes not good aligned, yadda yadda yadda.

Then I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if every pantheon had an opposite, the classic sort of 'evil twin' idea, brought to life. The duality of so many pantheons seemed to marry this idea perfectly; Greek-Roman being the classic example, but there are lots of others (Norse-Germanic, Irish-Welsh, Aztec-Mayan etc.) So I decided this would make an interesting adventure or campaign idea for an epic/immortal campaign.

I would be remiss if I also didn't say that the Palladium Book "Pantheons of the Megaverse" wasn't also an inspiration in this regard. For me its still the greatest immortal-centric book ever...even though I don't understand most of the mechanics (I don't own the RIFTS RPG, although I do have half a dozen of their books). What I admire so much about that book is the imaginative way it maintains the verisimilitude of so many fantastical ideas. The gods therein are not the stale interpretations often regurgitated - instead they take account of the universe around them and are all the more interesting for it! Neither is the book afraid to talk about the relationships between pantheons it even goes so far to talk about any pertinent relationship between other major forces of the universe. Such as: the Alien Splugorth; the Vampire Kingdoms; the Mechanoids; the Demons etc.

 

[Verequus]

I'm wondering, why the metamagic feats don't up the save DC automatically - giving Heighten Spell for free. Where is the problem? In Elements of Magic Revised, the spell DC is 10 + 1/2 used MP + Cha mod - metamagic feats add to the used MP. But there are some major differences to the core magic system, which could prevent the change in core, especially for epic gaming.

1. The spells are entirely caster level independent - if a fireball deals 5d6 damage, then being 20th-level does nothing to increase the damage. Damage caps aren't necessary - you only get, what you pay for.

2. Many core metamagic feats are integrated in the spell creation system - if you want a bigger area, a longer duration or simply more damage, then you have only to spent more MP, no need for extra feats. (Of course, creating spells is in EoMR far more easily than in core - but also weaker for the added versatility.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Some of you may find a few interesting notes in this thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=144613&page=2

Hiya Rulemaster matey!

I'm wondering, why the metamagic feats don't up the save DC automatically - giving Heighten Spell for free. Where is the problem?

Never give anything for free - always make them work for it.

People go to a lot of trouble to get their ability scores raised and pick spell focus feats to do the same thing you want to give for free!