Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Anabstercorian]

*whipcrack* Happiness is forbidden! Back to work or more puppies go in the furnace!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Alzrius matey!

Which doesn't seem to prove anything, as it should already be a similar effect for the Plane of Fire. If fire damage deals 1/2 damage to objects (before being subjected to hardness), then the Plane of Fire, which deals 3d10 points of damage, would eventually melt any magic weapon with less than a +5 enhancement bonus. And yet, we see efreet from the Plane of Fire with equipment of that caliber.

Iron doesn't even melt in lava! So its clear that the official rules in this matter are a bit mad.

I don't think the One Ring would have been quite as impressive if it had been pulling itself back together T-1000-style, but that's just me.

Well they didn't penetrate its damage reduction/hardness to find out whether it had regeneration or not.

I'm saying they don't need more encouragement, which is what the proposed changes would do.

But thats simply not true at all.

Immunities are more valuable, therefore they are going to be sought and prized above and beyond 'mere' resistances.

Any DM who makes it so that PC immunities destroy risk in the game isn't doing their job right.

Feel free to start listing off the 'outs' for DMs who run immortals using the immunities in D&Dg?

Likewise, having the monsters have immunities increases the risk.

Theres equality for you. Now you can hamstring both the monsters and the PCs.

Such attacks can still be poignant at higher levels, it just requires creativity.

A PC with electricity immunity from a magic item can just have that item disjoined, and there you go.

Hardly a creative solution.

Not to mention that an immortal has no need of a magic item to be immune to electricity.

Likewise, Zeus throwing lightning shouldn't be the end-all of his powers and abilities.

Its his signature power. The idea that its pointless versus every immortal and practically every epic character is laughable.

And if you really feel that strongly about it, give him an immunity-breaker.

Or, heres an idea, how about Zeus electrical attacks are just so powerful that they'll overcome the electricity resistance of most characters.

That's why a lot of divine powers have a clause that they don't protect against deities with a higher DvR.

Indeed - they have an absolute built into the core of the system to begin with!

You seem to be working off the assumption that these characters will be fighting nothing but gods.

If you abide by the D&Dg immunities thats going to be virtually the only remaing effective threat you will be able to use.

Even the epic-level monsters in your own Bestiary (to say nothing of the ELH and Legends of Avadnu) are in the category of being powerful without being divine, and so are still vulnerable to some or all of those effects.

Virtually all the monsters in the ELH are going to be totally neutered by D&Dg immortal PCs. Near all their special abilities will be rendered useless which basically takes away anything unique or cool about the monster in the first place.

I can't speak for Legends of Avadnu, but I would be amazed if there are more than 2 or 3 special abilities in the whole book that will bypass the basic immortals immunities.

As for my own Bestiary, one saving grace for it is that a lot of the monsters are essentially deities, the other is that I have a list of over 300 divine powers to draw upon, so I was able to instigate some new effects. But even then most of the monsters suffer.

The point here is that all enemies aren't immune to everything all the time; the challenges are still there, just more challenging, which is the point of the game.

Its the PCs who are going to be immune to (next to) everything, which means that not even epic monsters will constitute a challenge.

You're saying things are more epic, and more dangerous, when you can use fire damage against a living, evil sun? I disagree.

Obviously the campaign world is a FAR more dangerous place when the PCs are not immune to 95% of special abilities.

Hence why D&D is a game about heroes, not gods. But that aside, you can still threaten deities that have all those immunities (to say nothing of why there are also effects that penetrate immunities...a villain with one of those will be surprising and memorable for the players, which is great fun).

Its self-defeating to have something penetrate an immunity in a system that purports infinite scope.

Again, I disagree.

We will see when you list the 'outs' above.

But there is a lesson in that which endures.

I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water here.

This is a gross overstatement. One character overcoming (partially) an immunity hardly strips an epic monster of all of its special abilities.

I'm talking about D&Dg immortal PCs having so many immunities that virtually the entire roster of monsters are bringing no valid special abilities to bear.

Like I said, common sense.

If we use common sense we don't use fire immunity and we don't need MegaFlames then we don't need MegaFlames immunity, continue ad infinitum.

So you're saying that good role-players can't resist templation? LOL

I think designers have to pandour to all roleplayers, not just the good ones.

I'd hardly characterize the discourse as acerbic. My putting you in your place was done with the utmost respect.

You've ruined this whole thread you know.

Regarding immunities specifically, my above statement stands.

Immunities are one part of Absolutes. He addressed the whole rather than the specific. You can't say, "Well he only spoke about Immunities for 25% of his article so they must be 75% okay by him!"

If you think I'm presenting it, you need to re-read my above statements. I'm saying that the real problem of SKR's discourse on immunities (within the larger context of absolutes) isn't that immunities ruin gameplay so much as it is a rant against said "infinitely long list of reversals." A good DM can put a stop to that easily enough.

He was also directly against the illogic of immunities at all, not simply endless reversals.

Which leads to the problems I outlined above, when all of that (the changes, the problems, etc.) could be avoided by the DM exercising a small measure of authority...or even the player realizing that engaging in that ultimately hurts his character more than any monster (as the wasted feat slots will not be worth the expenditure).

Gaming supplements are DM aides. The designer does the donkey work so the DM won't have to. Same thing here.

Hey, if you live somewhere without an overpopulation of SUVs, be happy.

Super Underwater Vorlons?

So is foolishness.

Time will tell.

I say, surely it is not.

You're certainly entitled to be wrong if you so wish.

By pointing out that it's not a fact.

Can you think of any real world immunities?

 

[Anabstercorian]

Can you think of any real world immunities?

Upper Krust is immune to schedules, completing a project, and good time management.

 

[Borlon]

On the subject of killing fire elementals with fire damage-

Human beings are powered by positive energy, and instead of being harmed by it, are actually healed. If the core books were written from the perspective of an intelligent undead, this would definitely be a special quality. But too much positive energy (e.g. exposure to the Positive Energy Plane) makes us blow up.

Although the mechanics are different, I could see an analogous principle at work with fire elementals and very intense fire damage. They are made of fire and powered by fire, but a very intense fire will overwhelm their internal equilibrium and cause them to disperse.

That would be my rationale, anyway.

 

[CRGreathouse]

U_K has never seen an SUV (that he can remember) and doesn't even know what they are (I had to look up what SUV meant).

That's why I gave a definition and quick description.

As far as I know, a fire would be destroyed if attacked by a much hotter fire source. I'll try and find some websites on this.

I can't imagine that, aside from consuming its fuel or oxygen. When dealing with magical creatures needing neither, I can't see it working. When it does, I want Con damage instead of overcoming 50/100/150 points of resistance to deal normal damage.

 

[Kerrick]

If you're referring to some of the stuff over on the WotC board, all the ones I can remember were about players bemoaning that their PC came up against a monster with an immunity to something they had. Not quite what I'd call a game-breaker.

No, I was referring to DMs bemoaning that they couldn't challenge their PCs because said PCs were immune to everything (see, eliminating energy immunity cuts both ways).

I say, one immunity, and one exception to it...after that, it should stop.

Well, see, that's the problem, again - despite the fact that it's common sense to most of us, some of us are either too dense or too naive to realize it, and thus perpetuate the never-ending cycle.

Any DM who makes it so that PC immunities destroy risk in the game isn't doing their job right. Likewise, having the monsters have immunities increases the risk.

Increase the risk of what? The PCs being frustrated because they can't kill/defeat the monster and giving up and going home?

If you just sit back and wait, he'll never come up with anything. You must strike him daily with this bamboo switch or he will wander without end from subject to subject, never completing any, endlessly seizing on new cognitive fads and forever at the mercy of his flightful mind. For his own good, out of love, strike him. If you meet the Buddha on the road, you must kill him.

But if we kill him, he won't get anything done. I prefer the idea of chasing him down the road, striking him with the bamboo switch.

Assuming you mean the City of Brass, the city is an enclosed space (IIRC), so the outside fire doesn't get it, since the immunity of the city's borders keep it at bay.

No, the Plane of Fire in general. Besides, the sun's surface is several thousand degrees (30k?). That's the result of nuclear reactions (fission and fusion). How, exactly, does the Plane of Fire, being only fire, compare to that?

But there is a lesson in that which endures.

I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water here.

Oh, will you two stop swapping aphorisms? It's making my head hurt.

I was going to post more, but this discussion is starting to look like a tennis match, and frankly I've got better things to do with my time. Obviously, Alzrius, you think that we shouldn't tinker with things that "aren't broken," despite the fact that D&D is ever-evolving (and things that don't evolve, unless they have reached the perfect form, die out. D&D is nowhere near perfect, and thus is it still evolving. Why shouldn't we help it along? Isn't that human nature, to ask "why," to take things apart to see how they work and attempt to put them back together so they work better? Isn't it human nature to strive ever upwards, to seek perfection in all things? If we don't tinker with the underlying system of d20, we will never reach perfection. Who's to say how changing energy immunity will end up? Maybe it'll be thing that epic play needed. Maybe it won't. But we won't know for sure until we see how the whole works together. We won't know at all if UK decides "Screw this, I'm tired of hearing everyone arguing about it" and ditches the idea altogether. Everyone insisted that the world was flat, and yet Columbus sailed off to the New World and proved them wrong.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Alzrius, but I think you're defending it a bit vociferously. You've stated your case and made your points - let it lie.

And finally...

Although the mechanics are different, I could see an analogous principle at work with fire elementals and very intense fire damage. They are made of fire and powered by fire, but a very intense fire will overwhelm their internal equilibrium and cause them to disperse.

Yeah, I like that line of thought. Any fire hot enough to destroy a fire being in this manner is supernatural or magical in nature, thus it could overcome the magical resistance/immunity the creature has in the first place.

 

[Alzrius]

Iron doesn't even melt in lava! So its clear that the official rules in this matter are a bit mad.

Hence why I said that it'd be a good idea to increase the damage taken from being exposed to the Plane of Fire.

Well they didn't penetrate its damage reduction/hardness to find out whether it had regeneration or not.

Assuming that it wasn't just immune to damage. Major artifacts would lose a lot of their potency if epic/immortal PCs could just whack them into nothing.

But thats simply not true at all.

Immunities are more valuable, therefore they are going to be sought and prized above and beyond 'mere' resistances.

If you remove immunities and replace them with high-level resistances, PCs will seek and prize them just as much as immunities, so we can say that your postulation there definately isn't true.

On the other hand, replacing monsters' immunities with resistances inarguably decreases their threat-potential.

Feel free to start listing off the 'outs' for DMs who run immortals using the immunities in D&Dg?

Gods of higher rank, beings with immunity-breakers, major artifacts ("major artifact" is Latin for "plot device"), and the big one...damage of a type that they AREN'T immune to! Yes, there are still some of those...and all of those outs are just off the top of my head.

Theres equality for you. Now you can hamstring both the monsters and the PCs.

You say it hamstrings the side that opposes creatures with immunities...I say, it makes it more challenging for them. And D&D is about escalating challenge. Heroes are made more heroic when winning is that much harder.

Hardly a creative solution.

Not to mention that an immortal has no need of a magic item to be immune to electricity.

Creativity comes from developing new ideas to overcome challenges, not from tearing down things that are slightly difficult to deal with. Likewise, immortals are immune to electricity, but epic mortals aren't, and that's half of epic/immortal gaming right there.

Likewise, if a DM has a big problem with immortal PCs being too powerful due to so many immunities, there's a simple answer...don't let them become gods! A 1000th-level character can put the smack down on most deities just fine.

Its his signature power. The idea that its pointless versus every immortal and practically every epic character is laughable.

Given that epic characters would most likely be relying on magic, which allows the disjunction possibility I outlined before, that hardly seems laughable. As for it being useless versus immortals...have you forgotten that it works on deities of lesser divine ranks? Unless your entire party is DvR 19+, they're not inherently immune anyway. And if they are that strong, it seems to make sense that they'd shrug off his power.

Or, heres an idea, how about Zeus electrical attacks are just so powerful that they'll overcome the electricity resistance of most characters.

How about that makes his electrical attacks hideously unbalanced, then? A party of mixed characters (some have electricity resistance, some do not) will quickly divide up into those who only take some of the damage, and those who take all of it. E.g., if Zeus's lightning bolts deal 800 points of damage, the characters with electricity resistance 700 are facing a moderate threat...and those without any are facing a major threat. Being a god, Zeus quickly realizes who is more hurt, and focuses on the characters who take more damage. Said PCs are now facing a disproportionally deadlier encounter.

Indeed - they have an absolute built into the core of the system to begin with!

Well yeah, hence why SKR wrote the article.

If you abide by the D&Dg immunities thats going to be virtually the only remaing effective threat you will be able to use.

I disagree, see the outs listed above. Likewise, there can be epic monsters that have god-like abilities (by this, I mean virtual divine ranks) and so can overcome divine immunities of deities with lesser ranks. See the incredible work Beyond the Gates of Hell over at DICEFREAKS for more on this.

Virtually all the monsters in the ELH are going to be totally neutered by D&Dg immortal PCs. Near all their special abilities will be rendered useless which basically takes away anything unique or cool about the monster in the first place.

I can't speak for Legends of Avadnu, but I would be amazed if there are more than 2 or 3 special abilities in the whole book that will bypass the basic immortals immunities.

As for my own Bestiary, one saving grace for it is that a lot of the monsters are essentially deities, the other is that I have a list of over 300 divine powers to draw upon, so I was able to instigate some new effects. But even then most of the monsters suffer.

Almost none of those monsters are meant to be facing immortal PCs, just epic ones. Don't tout their being meant for something different as a flaw of the system, because it isn't.

Its the PCs who are going to be immune to (next to) everything, which means that not even epic monsters will constitute a challenge.

Considering that you've said immortal PCs are above epic ones, it doesn't seem odd that monsters that are merely "epic" won't threaten immortal PCs. This isn't anything immortal monsters (or epic monsters of a much higher caliber) couldn't solve.

Obviously the campaign world is a FAR more dangerous place when the PCs are not immune to 95% of special abilities.

And just as obviously, a much less dangerous place when you can say the same thing about the monsters.

Its self-defeating to have something penetrate an immunity in a system that purports infinite scope.

Only if someone lets it get to the point of being infinite. DMs are not hamstrung in regards to their game being just that...their game.

We will see when you list the 'outs' above.

Enjoy!

I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water here.

If you take yourself too seriously, no one will.

I'm talking about D&Dg immortal PCs having so many immunities that virtually the entire roster of monsters are bringing no valid special abilities to bear.

And I'm talking about all monsters, across the board, having no immunities, and their resistances not being nearly enough to stop them from thusly becoming much too easy to kill.

If we use common sense we don't use fire immunity and we don't need MegaFlames then we don't need MegaFlames immunity, continue ad infinitum.

If we use common sense, we use immunity, we use immunity breakers, and we chose to stop at a point before it gets ridiculous, instead of having to revise the entire system.

I think designers have to pandour to all roleplayers, not just the good ones.

You seem to be suggesting that game designers are intentionally creating bad products to appeal to the bad gamers...which sounds rather crazy.

You've ruined this whole thread you know.

Wow, even the first 20+ pages? Longest thread I've ever ruined!

Immunities are one part of Absolutes. He addressed the whole rather than the specific. You can't say, "Well he only spoke about Immunities for 25% of his article so they must be 75% okay by him!"

And the only thing we've been discussing is the part of his article specific to the question of immunities in the system. Hence why I said that.

He was also directly against the illogic of immunities at all, not simply endless reversals.

A large part of his impetus for that stance was as a reaction against infinite reversals...which seems to be lacking as true necessity to institute such a large change.

Gaming supplements are DM aides. The designer does the donkey work so the DM won't have to. Same thing here.

It's not donkey work for the DM to approve or disapprove something a player brings to his table.

Super Underwater Vorlons?

I love that show.

Time will tell.

Indeed.

You're certainly entitled to be wrong if you so wish.

I've chosen to waive that entitlement...hence why I'm right.

Can you think of any real world immunities?

No, but please do point out some real world gods who only have high resistances and not immunities. And we all know that if it doesn't happen in the real world, it can NEVER happen in D&D.

 

[Alzrius]

No, I was referring to DMs bemoaning that they couldn't challenge their PCs because said PCs were immune to everything (see, eliminating energy immunity cuts both ways).

No PC is ever immune to everything. Sorry, but those sound like bad DMs to me.

Well, see, that's the problem, again - despite the fact that it's common sense to most of us, some of us are either too dense or too naive to realize it, and thus perpetuate the never-ending cycle.

That's not a problem as far as the system is concerned. Revamping part of the game because some people don't know how to play is madness.

Increase the risk of what? The PCs being frustrated because they can't kill/defeat the monster and giving up and going home?

If a player is having a hard time killing the monster, and finds that to be enough reason to leave the gaming table, then IMHO, they're not very good players.

No, the Plane of Fire in general. Besides, the sun's surface is several thousand degrees (30k?). That's the result of nuclear reactions (fission and fusion). How, exactly, does the Plane of Fire, being only fire, compare to that?

I'll tell you exactly how the physics of the Plane of Fire top that...as soon as one is discovered.

Comparing the science of our sun to a fantasy realm is always doomed to be a foolish comparison. It can only be done as an art, not a science. And the art of it is that the Plane of Fire is the primal source of all fire, all heat, in existence. As such, there shouldn't be a naturally-occuring body of fire that is hotter than it.

Oh, will you two stop swapping aphorisms? It's making my head hurt.

But I've never gotten such use out of my copy of Bartlett's.

I was going to post more, but this discussion is starting to look like a tennis match

[...]

Everyone insisted that the world was flat, and yet Columbus sailed off to the New World and proved them wrong.

Everyone also insisted that the gods moved the heavens, and yet Aristotle explained how the skies were the result of the celestial spheres...and he was dead wrong.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Alzrius, but I think you're defending it a bit vociferously. You've stated your case and made your points - let it lie.

I'm giving as good as I'm getting, and I'm enjoying having such a lively debate, especially since we've kept it to the realm of "nice". I don't see the problem.

Besides...it's U_K's serve.

 

[Pssthpok]

Hi Pssthpok mate!



My mistake. That +4 was for all attacks. If I was making it only applicable to one attack per round then I would suggest a +20 Dodge bonus.

Hey hey, UK.

+20 to one... that should handle most things within CR-reach and implement a pretty much no-hit policy on a single bad guy once per round, yet still leave room for someone to come in from 'on high' and layeth the smack down. Nice. I'll have to consider it for our games, tho.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Borlon dude!

On the subject of killing fire elementals with fire damage-

Human beings are powered by positive energy, and instead of being harmed by it, are actually healed. If the core books were written from the perspective of an intelligent undead, this would definitely be a special quality. But too much positive energy (e.g. exposure to the Positive Energy Plane) makes us blow up.

Although the mechanics are different, I could see an analogous principle at work with fire elementals and very intense fire damage. They are made of fire and powered by fire, but a very intense fire will overwhelm their internal equilibrium and cause them to disperse.

That would be my rationale, anyway.

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell. The more you heat something the more you disperse its molecules...even fire itself.