Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Sorcica mate!

Ability gain is same as core. But Iron Heroes uses a point buy system, all stats start at 10, it costs 1:1 to 15, then 2:1 to 17 and 4:1 after that. You get 24 points.

So you can have 14 in every stat, which is already more than twice as good as standard point buy.

Feat progression is two at 1st lvl (I assume one is from being human) and one at lvls 2, 4, 6 ,8 ,10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20.
Many of the classes get additional bonus feats.

Thats another substantial leap. I noticed the Hunter Class had something like 15 class features spread over the 20 levels, counting feats that the equivalent of 27 feats over the course of 20 levels...by comparison the core fighter gets 18.

However the Hunter Class has comparable Hit Dice (higher average, lower maximum), far better Skill Points (and Skill Groups), Traits, an AC Bonus which is almost +1/level and Saving Throws of +1/level...my guess is this totes up to the equivalent of about 31 feats.

So I would say a conservative estimate puts the Hunter class about 40 feats* better off than the core Fighter, as well as having a +2 CR bonus (instead of +1) for starting ability scores.

*and for that I was using CRGreathouse idea that a feat could give a +2 AC Bonus.

True. So you think the classes are more balanced now?

Yes and no. I still think the spellcasting classes have an edge, for two reasons. Firstly, because the feats for the martial classes are relatively weak. Secondly because its more important to min/max magic equipment for martial classes.

I'm in the proces of giving fighters more feats and rogues too, to get their 'value' up to 115, according to the CR system ver. 4.

I might have to reconsider this now?

I think the relative difference is still the same, albeit 5/6ths a difference now.

The magic items thing is tricky. With martial classes it would be very easy to have two PCs of the same level, with the same value of equipment and by min/maxing the equipment of one, make it noticeably more powerful. Its unlikely you could say the same about the magical classes.

 

[Zoatebix]

Yeah - I could velieve 1/3 character power is magic items instead of 1/5. I have to go, but I will post later.

 

[Anubis]

UK talks a good game, but he and I have debated this issue numerous times and I beleive his system has too many holes. This new system has very nasty holes in that the monster CRs come out LOWER than those in the book. This is unacceptable. Part of the problem is that a lot of CRs in the book are already too low!

Did UK mention that, under his new system, Fire Giants work out as CR 8? This means it should be a moderate encounter for a Level 8 party. If you look at Level 8 characters, though, you'll notice low AC and low hp. On top of that, even fighters will need 10 or better to get a hit on their best attack. Given that and the Fire Giant's 142 hp, it looks a lot like a Fire Giant could full attack a party fighter ONCE and flatten him. Twice if the Fire Giant rolls bad. The party will use practically all their resources and a couple are almost guaranteed to die. This isn't a moderate encounter, this is a VERY DIFFCICULT encounter. Certainly not CR.

There are other examples, but you can see from the Fire Giant the direction those examples would go.

Anyway, I had proposed a system wherein the Golden Rule would be applied by halving all CR modifiers beyond the flat HD mod for monsters or the flat class mod for anything with a character class. Under my system, the Fire Giant works out to a nice and neat CR 12. This is below the ultra-high numbers of UK's old system, but still higher than the ridiculously low numbers of the book and UK's new system. A nice rate to keep PCs from biting off more than they can chew or be thrown into battles they can't win.

The only (possible) flaw in my system is that some high-ability creatures still seem a bit low, meaning that the right method MIGHT be to halve all CR modifiers beyond the flat HD mod plus ability scores mods for the monsters and maybe flat class mods plus ability score mods for classes.

UK goes on and on about arbitrary this and rate them the same and all this other garbage, but I ask you folks this. What is the bottom line with CR? I give you this answer: "Does it work in-game?" So, does it work in game? A monster of a CR equal to the party should be a "moderate encounter", and 13-1/3 such encounters should gain a level. Well, using UK's old system, monsters of a CR equal to the party were easy (very easy). Meanwhile, using the book or UK's new system results on monsters of a CR equal to the party being tough (sometimes overly tough). My system, if used with the core rules (with CRs properly modified as detailed in UK's system if you use uber-powerful supplementals such as the Action Points and Defense Bonus systems from Unearthed Arcana or the Hero class from FCTF), works, and isn't that the only bottom line that matters?

UK got almost everything right. The basic CR mods, the build of the CR models, lots of stuff. Unfortunately, he could never tune a Golden Rule capable of making all that stuff work in an actual game.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Okay I received an email from the webspace provider, but they still haven't received the money order as of this post. I can only assume it has somehow become lost, which means it looks like I will have to send it again, so its looking like a week before I will be able to update again.

Although, if thats the case the next update should involve the official release of the Bestiary.

Regarding the next Absolutes article, about Anti-magic, at first glance it appears that using these new rules would actually allow you to introduce the magic system I talked about a while back, whereby you could destroy planets by min/maxing a 100th-level spellcaster. The idea obviously needs further research and testing of course (which I don't really have time for at the moment) but its food for thought.

Oh and the Neo-Neutronium Golem

1,330,720 hp
30,720d10+243 dmg

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis matey!

UK talks a good game,

...why thank you.

but he and I have debated this issue numerous times

too many times you could say.

and I beleive his system has too many holes. This new system has very nasty holes in that the monster CRs come out LOWER than those in the book. This is unacceptable. Part of the problem is that a lot of CRs in the book are already too low!

Did UK mention that, under his new system, Fire Giants work out as CR 8? This means it should be a moderate encounter for a Level 8 party.

Actually it means it would be a tough encounter for CR 8.

ECL = moderate
CR = tough

This is keeping in line with the official rules to a certain extent.

If you look at Level 8 characters, though, you'll notice low AC and low hp. On top of that, even fighters will need 10 or better to get a hit on their best attack. Given that and the Fire Giant's 142 hp, it looks a lot like a Fire Giant could full attack a party fighter ONCE and flatten him. Twice if the Fire Giant rolls bad. The party will use practically all their resources and a couple are almost guaranteed to die. This isn't a moderate encounter, this is a VERY DIFFCICULT encounter. Certainly not CR.

Its a 'tough' encounter

There are other examples, but you can see from the Fire Giant the direction those examples would go.

Anyway, I had proposed a system wherein the Golden Rule would be applied by halving all CR modifiers beyond the flat HD mod for monsters or the flat class mod for anything with a character class.

Under my system, the Fire Giant works out to a nice and neat CR 12.

Strangely enough the same as my revised Fire Giant ECL (moderate CR).

This is below the ultra-high numbers of UK's old system, but still higher than the ridiculously low numbers of the book and UK's new system. A nice rate to keep PCs from biting off more than they can chew or be thrown into battles they can't win.

The only (possible) flaw in my system is that some high-ability creatures still seem a bit low, meaning that the right method MIGHT be to halve all CR modifiers beyond the flat HD mod plus ability scores mods for the monsters and maybe flat class mods plus ability score mods for classes.

...well its not quite the only flaw lets be honest...

UK goes on and on about arbitrary this and rate them the same and all this other garbage, but I ask you folks this. What is the bottom line with CR? I give you this answer: "Does it work in-game?" So, does it work in game? A monster of a CR equal to the party should be a "moderate encounter", and 13-1/3 such encounters should gain a level. Well, using UK's old system, monsters of a CR equal to the party were easy (very easy). Meanwhile, using the book or UK's new system results on monsters of a CR equal to the party being tough (sometimes overly tough). My system, if used with the core rules (with CRs properly modified as detailed in UK's system if you use uber-powerful supplementals such as the Action Points and Defense Bonus systems from Unearthed Arcana or the Hero class from FCTF), works, and isn't that the only bottom line that matters?

...what my esteemed colleague here fails to point out is that his method uses different rules for PCs and Monsters, which, if you'll remember is one of the problems the CR system tried to solve (essentially how could PC CRs equal ECL and Monster CRs not equal ECL).

In a nutshell, Anubis system rates class features at double the value of the exact same ability given to a monster. So its one rule for PCs/NPCs and another rule for monsters...maybe its just me but that doesn't make sense.

eg. A Fighters bonus feats as part of its class features are included within the Fighters HD modifier - so that every class bestows +0.8 CR/level and every bonus feat is +0.2 CR. Whereas if we take a Magical Beast, and give it the exact same number of bonus feats, each such bonus feat only adds +0.1 CR, because since its not part of the Magical Beasts HD mod (unlike the Fighter Class) it gets halved.

UK got almost everything right. The basic CR mods, the build of the CR models, lots of stuff. Unfortunately, he could never tune a Golden Rule capable of making all that stuff work in an actual game.

I appreciate the vote of confidence mate, I especially like like how you arrived at your conclusions, oddly enough a week after I told you there could be a flaw with the Golden Rule.

However, as it turned out the Golden Rule is still valid, the flaw was in the basic CR mods all along, which I actually knew about, hence the Silver Rule. What I didn't pick up on was that it should be applied wholesale - to both monsters and PC classes, because a level of wealth is really worth 1/3rd of a PCs CR (not 1/5th). Once I sussed that out the rest fell neatly into place.

 

[Zoatebix]

Yay! Anubis showed up! Now we need to get Cheiromancer in here and maybe Wulf and we can have a reuinon party. I'm still a little miffed that your (Anubis's) method for awarding XP didn't make it into the Bad Axe Games Gamemastering PDF. (Various methods detailed here: http://enworld.org/showthread.php?p=1834967#post1834967 Anubis's is method 2b in the linked post.)

I've been using the straight 2/3rds "golden rule" as suggested in Wulf's products for a while and things have been pretty OK - at least much more predictable than core RAW. Still - I'd definately want to hear any other thoughts and most especially any playtest experience people have had.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Hi Zoatebix! Hi Anubis!

Thanks Z for posting the link. It's a nice summary of a lot of work that Anubis and I did. I've bumped it with a bit of new material.

As for a reunion party- well, I'd rather be celebrating the release of the IHB! Actually, I'd rather be celebrating a series of long updates to Sepulchrave's story hour, but it seems more realistic to await the IHB.

I haven't been playing or DMing lately, so I don't have much to say about playtesting those CR numbers. I can say that it is tricky trying to get the monster CRs to agree with UK's calculations. Or to get the class breakdowns to agree with his figures. If anyone has an itemized breakdown of monsters, (or has calculated the CRs of the monsters not in the SRD) I wish they would make it available!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

One thing I want to throw out to the group prior to its revision in the Bestiary, is the subject of artifacts. As you know, I am tinkering with the idea that in place of having a long list of items deities would instead be able to choose four artifacts (each representing roughly 25% of their wealth). The deities wealth would of course be based upon its ECL, so its liable to be much higher, also there are a few other things regarding artifacts (which I won't go into now) which can boost things even higher.

Now, as far as I can tell, the average difference between PC and NPC wealth at epic levels is something like 10:1.

This x10 represents something like a threefold increase in item power.

eg. A PC deity might have a +30 weapon, whereas the same NPC deity would have a +10 weapon.

Maybe its just me (and this is sort of what I am asking), but I find that too much of a discrepancy.

If PCs ever reach the same heady heights as Thor and Odin, I don't want them to be running around with artifacts that easily eclipse Mjolnir and Gungnir, or indeed equal those legendary weapons while the PCs are still 'mere' Quasi-deities and Demigods.

So the upshoot of all this is that using this artifact ruling (which I sort of had in place in the Bestiary already...why do you think all the angels get four items) that deities gain PC wealth.

Which turns us to the Bestiary.

Suffice to say those magic item carrying divine monsters get a substantial boost.

eg. the Maskim's +8 flaming burst, keen, vorpal doublesword might well become a +26 flaming burst, ghost touch, keen, lawful power, unholy power, vorpal double sword.

In terms of epic monsters however, this isn't really a new precedent. Looking at the current weapon wielders in the ELH.

Gloom CR 25: +10 (human) dread, keen dagger +18 total = 6.48 million wealth
Hoary Hunter CR 25: +6 keen longsword of binding, value equivalent to almost +10 (epic) = 1.8 million wealth
Leshay CR 28: pair of +10 brilliant energy, keen longswords, +15 each = 9 million wealth

...so the bottom line is, don't be shocked if you see some powerful artifacts in the Bestiary.

Any comments?

 

[Pssthpok]

Make it happen.

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

Oh and the Neo-Neutronium Golem

1,330,720 hp
30,720d10+243 dmg

That's planet damaging, but I'm guessing a far cry from some of the more outlandish Dimensional magic?

so the bottom line is, don't be shocked if you see some powerful artifacts in the Bestiary.

Fine by me.