D&D 5E Another monk thread! Fixing the Way of the 4 Elements

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Judging by fan reaction, it was meant to emulate it. And the reason it's so bad and why people don't like it is because it sucks at that emulation. that's the point.

We even had that discussion here when it came out

D&D 5E - Avatar: The 4-element monk mini-guide

(Wasn't sure how to move a thread from the lifeboat forum to here so I'm just reposting it) The World Needs the Avatar, now more than ever: A "Way of the Four Elements" mini-guide So, you have decided to go beyond a mere fist and quarterstaff and instead choose to wield the very elements of...

www.enworld.org

If the Wot4E monk so bad at emulating the Avatar benders, doesn't that suggest that, perhaps, the subclass has a different vision in mind?

 

[Sacrosanct]

If the Wot4E monk so bad at emulating the Avatar benders, doesn't that suggest that, perhaps, the subclass has a different vision in mind?

Nope, it doesn't suggest that. the BM ranger was meant to emulate the Beast Master (movie) in a large degree, and sucked at that. Just because something was a bad representation doesn't mean that wasn't the intent.

Occam's Razor: When designing a class that shares the flavor of a fictional representation, it's more plausible that it's trying to emulate the super popular one that everyone know and wants to play, and not the obscure other representation that only a few people know about.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Nope, it doesn't suggest that. the BM ranger was meant to emulate the Beast Master (movie) in a large degree, and sucked at that. Just because something was a bad representation doesn't mean that wasn't the intent.

Occam's Razor: When designing a class that shares the flavor of a fictional representation, it's more plausible that it's trying to emulate the super popular one that everyone know and wants to play, and not the obscure other representation that only a few people know about.

There is a vast chasm of difference between the phrases "trying to emulate" and "emulates". Personally, I have zero interest in intent and much more in the result.

In both cases, the Beast Master Ranger does not emulate the Beast Master (movie). Likewise the WotFE monk does not emulate the Avatar bender.

As far as I can tell, the only support anyone has mustered to support the proposition that the WotFE monk emulates the Avatar bender is that Avatar is popular, and thus people naturally compare the two.

Personally, I found that support lacking; it fails to address the discrepancies in the D&D mechanics and Avatar-universe conventions.

Once again, it's like seeing the word "thou" in a sonnet and jumping to the conclusion that the poem emulates Shakespeare when in fact the poem utilizes a Spenserian rhyme scheme. Even if the author intended the poem to emulate Shakespeare's sonnets, the use of the Spenserian rhyme scheme suggests that the poem is more Spenserian than Shakespearean. Shakespeare's increased popularity over Spenser's is irrelevant. Spenser's relative obscurity simply excuses the mistake.

 

[Leatherhead]

If the 4-elements monk used the traditional 5 element system found in eastern philosophies I would agree that it was meant to emulate martial artists in general. But it doesnt.

 

[Xeviat]

Like others have said, the Monk is already a half-caster, just converted to spell points and divided by 3 for the 2 short rests to 1 long rest, with the numbers adjusted slightly to have a nice smooth progression.

The way of 4 elements monk sucks because the whole subclass is only granting extra "spells" known. The Cleric's subclasses grant extra spells known on top of special features.

My old fix for the 4 elements monk was to give them a few more cantrips, give them a "war caster" ability to cantrip and bonus action attack still, later give them an improved warcaster, and then to give them variable energy resistance (let them change it as a reaction or bonus action), and a little extra. It's not too hard.

 

[Parmandur]

Like others have said, the Monk is already a half-caster, just converted to spell points and divided by 3 for the 2 short rests to 1 long rest, with the numbers adjusted slightly to have a nice smooth progression.

The way of 4 elements monk sucks because the whole subclass is only granting extra "spells" known. The Cleric's subclasses grant extra spells known on top of special features.

My old fix for the 4 elements monk was to give them a few more cantrips, give them a "war caster" ability to cantrip and bonus action attack still, later give them an improved warcaster, and then to give them variable energy resistance (let them change it as a reaction or bonus action), and a little extra. It's not too hard.

Basic structural problem is that the Monk is one of the Class-heavy designs, as opposed to the Subclass heavy Cleric. The different Monk Subclasses basically just give different Spell options to use with the points. The Sun Soul succeeds over the Four Elements in being concise and focused in what the new options are: lot of room to fill into analysis paralysis in the Four Elements.

 

[Asisreo]

Basic structural problem is that the Monk is one of the Class-heavy designs, as opposed to the Subclass heavy Cleric. The different Monk Subclasses basically just give different Spell options to use with the points. The Sun Soul succeeds over the Four Elements in being concise and focused in what the new options are: lot of room to fill into analysis paralysis in the Four Elements.

Which is an odd thing to say, that a sun soul "succeeds over 4-elemonk" considering that the sun soul is universally worse than the elemonk in all but flavor.

 

[Parmandur]

Which is an odd thing to say, that a sun soul "succeeds over 4-elemonk" considering that the sun soul is universally worse than the elemonk in all but flavor.

In what way? It has a ranged cantrip attack that uses the Martial Arts die and does an excellent damage type, and the more advanced spell options are just like the 4E in cost terms, without the need to fiddle with a build.

Mearls even said outright on Twitter a ways back that they found that people who were unsatisfied with the 4E were mostly satisfied with the Sun Soul, and based on beyond data the Sun Soul is very popular.

 

[TrueAlphaGamer]

. . . Likewise the WotFE monk does not emulate the Avatar bender.

As far as I can tell, the only support anyone has mustered to support the proposition that the WotFE monk emulates the Avatar bender is that Avatar is popular, and thus people naturally compare the two.

Personally, I found that support lacking; it fails to address the discrepancies in the D&D mechanics and Avatar-universe conventions . . .

What else would it be emulating, then? Can you provide an alternative? The setting of ATLA is heavily based on Asian cultures, themes, and motifs, much like the monk. Likewise, the bending in ATLA directly references real world martial arts through the movements of the characters, much like how the monk's abilities are based on real world martial arts (or the tropes surrounding them). I fail to see how it would be erroneous to see a clear connection between the two concepts. I mean, what else could WotC have used as inspiration in making it? Xiaolin Showdown?

I think the discrepancies are just the result of a failure in translating the inspiration into the game. Just because the subclass fails to deliver on the fantasy it was based on does not mean it was not based on that fantasy.

 

[Asisreo]

In what way? It has a ranged cantrip attack that uses the Martial Arts die and does an excellent damage type, and the more advanced spell options are just like the 4E in cost terms, without the need to fiddle with a build.

Mearls even said outright on Twitter a ways back that they found that people who were unsatisfied with the 4E were mostly satisfied with the Sun Soul, and based on beyond data the Sun Soul is very popular.

I believe it.

The cantrip attack is pretty bad, all things considered. It's good if you gave it to a spellcaster but as a monk, you already can do 1d6+dex damage at 20ft range. The only time it's better is if you're using your (at this point limited) ki to do a psuedo-flurry. Ranged attacks at short range like 30 is worse than melee anyways since the enemy merely needs to prone himself. You also cannot do a BA unarmed strike after the sun soul, so you'd definitely need to use your Ki to exceed the standard monk capabilities.

Even at 6th level where the sun soul gets their BA burning hands, the 4-elemonk should have graduated from that and gotten a wider breadth of options.

Sun soul met the expectations of it's fans but I don't think it can be considered superior solely on popularity (unless the discussion is a popularity contest).