D&D 5E Another monk thread! Fixing the Way of the 4 Elements

[Parmandur]

I believe it.

The cantrip attack is pretty bad, all things considered. It's good if you gave it to a spellcaster but as a monk, you already can do 1d6+dex damage at 20ft range. The only time it's better is if you're using your (at this point limited) ki to do a psuedo-flurry. Ranged attacks at short range like 30 is worse than melee anyways since the enemy merely needs to prone himself. You also cannot do a BA unarmed strike after the sun soul, so you'd definitely need to use your Ki to exceed the standard monk capabilities.

Even at 6th level where the sun soul gets their BA burning hands, the 4-elemonk should have graduated from that and gotten a wider breadth of options.

Sun soul met the expectations of it's fans but I don't think it can be considered superior solely on popularity (unless the discussion is a popularity contest).

Practically speaking, the lack of an effective ranged option that uses the Martial Arts die has been a problem that crops up frequently for Monks who aren't Sun Soul. Creatures flying 30 feet in the air can't be punched, nor go prone.

Class design is about two things: math and popularity. The math in both these Subclasses isn't a problem, so yeah, popularity is the entire name of the game.

 

[Asisreo]

Practically speaking, the lack of an effective ranged option that uses the Martial Arts die has been a problem that crops up frequently for Monks who aren't Sun Soul. Creatures flying 30 feet in the air can't be punched, nor go prone.

Why bother when you could just use something like water whip? At 6th-level, they can get shatter.

But a regular monk is fine against a low-level flying enemy. Just use your shortbow. It obviously isn't as strong as if you were in melee, but it's actually much better than using the spell attack.

There actually isn't a reason to use your spell attack unless you plan on using your Ki.

The martial arts die can be a red-herring. It doesn't matter if a feature uses it when you can use something stronger instead.

You could actually use a light-crossbow if you can. If you're an elf, use your longbow.

 

[Parmandur]

Why bother when you could just use something like water whip? At 6th-level, they can get shatter.

But a regular monk is fine against a low-level flying enemy. Just use your shortbow. It obviously isn't as strong as if you were in melee, but it's actually much better than using the spell attack.

There actually isn't a reason to use your spell attack unless you plan on using your Ki.

The martial arts die can be a red-herring. It doesn't matter if a feature uses it when you can use something stronger instead.

You could actually use a light-crossbow if you can. If you're an elf, use your longbow.

The longbow isn't necessarily useful if the enemy needs to be hit with magic, and the Sun Soul doesn't have to juggle anything. Of course any Monk is going to use Ki left, right and center if applicable: it's a Short Rest resource, that's the point.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

What else would it be emulating, then? Can you provide an alternative? The setting of ATLA is heavily based on Asian cultures, themes, and motifs, much like the monk. Likewise, the bending in ATLA directly references real world martial arts through the movements of the characters, much like how the monk's abilities are based on real world martial arts (or the tropes surrounding them). I fail to see how it would be erroneous to see a clear connection between the two concepts. I mean, what else could WotC have used as inspiration in making it? Xiaolin Showdown?

I think the discrepancies are just the result of a failure in translating the inspiration into the game. Just because the subclass fails to deliver on the fantasy it was based on does not mean it was not based on that fantasy.

I don't think it emulates anything, and I don't think it needs to. The concept of mixing martial arts with elemental magic stand on its own two feet, just like the Storm Herald Barbarian, the Whisper Bard, and the Horizon Walker, without the need to emulate anything in particular.

 

[Asisreo]

The longbow isn't necessarily useful if the enemy needs to be hit with magic, and the Sun Soul doesn't have to juggle anything. Of course any Monk is going to use Ki left, right and center if applicable: it's a Short Rest resource, that's the point.

Sure, but we're talking about low levels. There aren't many enemies that need to be hit with magical damage.

And while I agree that Ki should definitely be used, at lower levels you've got to use better judgement and not just waste them all. It's like being a spellcaster and always blowing their highest level spells around level 1-5 on the first couple of rounds in the day. Sure, it's effective at the moment but subsequent rounds and combats will be more difficult if you spent more than you needed.

 

[cbwjm]

So I know that people associate the 4 elements monk with benders in avatar, but is that really what it is meant to represent? Have the designers actually said that they made it to represent the characters in the show? Someone also mentioned beast master rangers representing the beastmaster character in that old 80s movie, but I'm also not sure that is the case since I feel like it is for people from 3e who played a ranger with an animal companion more than some 80s movie that hardly anyone nowadays would have heard about, seen, or even remembered (granted, the designers might have been fans of it).

I think that to get an actual bender class, you'd need just that, a class. It could probably be similar to the warlock in that the equivalent of pacts and invocations could help differentiate them (actually now that I think about it, that is essentially what the pathfinder kineticist is, an elemental warlock).

 

[Guy Icognito]

The secret of the Monk is that it already has Short Rest Spell slots, transformed into Spell Points and given another name (check the math, the Monk Ki is exactly a Spell Point using half-caster equivalent of the Warlock).

As such, the math dictates that a spell using Monk has to use Spells like the Four Elements Monk does. But that's not what people want, they want to be Zuko from the Last Airbender.

The base class is a half-caster warlock.
The subclass adds more spells but no more spell slots.

It's like making a spellcasting ranger or paladin subclass that ONLY grants more spells known but grants no additional spell slots. They have more options but their uses per day are the same.

 

[Parmandur]

The base class is a half-caster warlock.
The subclass adds more spells but no more spell slots.

It's like making a spellcasting ranger or paladin subclass that ONLY grants more spells known but grants no additional spell slots. They have more options but their uses per day are the same.

Which, if you check the Gloomstalker or Horizon Walker for the Ranger, or the Watcher for the Paladin...none of them add spell slots.

 

[Guy Icognito]

Which, if you check the Gloomstalker or Horizon Walker for the Ranger, or the Watcher for the Paladin...none of them add spell slots.

Do they get additional features other than spells? Because the monk ONLY gets new spells.

Picture a paladin subclass that gives the character thaumaturgy and extra 1st level spell known and an additional spell known at 6th, 11th and 17th leveI.
And that's it.
Would that be balanced? Would you take that choice for your character?

 

[Parmandur]

Do they get additional features other than spells? Because the monk ONLY gets new spells.

Picture a paladin subclass that gives the character thaumaturgy and extra 1st level spell known and an additional spell known at 6th, 11th and 17th leveI.
And that's it.
Would that be balanced? Would you take that choice for your character?

Subclasses are designed around the Class chassis. All the Monk Subclasses basically just add Ki power options (Spells and spell like effects budgeted like Spells) and a few doodads. Comparing one Classes Subclass to another chassis is not like to like.