Another "second-guess the paladin" thread

[Quasqueton]

When we first arrived in this port-town (by ship), we were accosted by a press gang of 8 thugs before we were even off the docks. Our party of 6 1st-level PCs took some lumps, but we dropped 5 thugs and the other 3 fled. We immediately went to the harbormaster to report what had happen, and to let the local constabulary know there were 5 unconcious and possibly dying men on the docks. We were rudely brushed off and the incident was ignored by the authorities.

OK, so we have an idea of what law and order is like in this town.

After a few days, during which we have been investigating a minor local mistery, we get ambushed again. This time in a "warehouse district". 2 roof-top crossbowmen, 4 swordsmen, a mage, and a leader swordsman are the attackers. We were hard-pressed and worried, but we prevailed against our assailants. One swordsman and one crossbowman got away, but the whip-weilding bard PC managed to trip up and capture one swordsman, and the cleric PC managed to stabalize the enemy mage from dying.

My paladin carried the unconscious enemy mage, and the bard prodded the captured swordsman along to a secluded ally a distance away from the battle. We needed information, especially about who set up the attack.

The swordsman answered our questions to the best of his knowledge, but he was just a hired thug with the local mercanary's guild. No really useful info came from him, other than this attack was a "legal/legitimate contract" and apparently this kind of thing was a common and accepted procedure in this town.

What to do with this guy (and the unconscious mage)? Turning him over to the "authorities" would probably be worthless. If they even took him in at all, they'd just turn him loose the next day (if they waited that long). My paladin clubbed him over the head (subdual damage) and knocked him out. I then broke his sword hand with a smack from my greatsword pommel. [Note: the thug was already unconscious when I broke his hand.]

We woke up the mage and got little more info from him. Then the rogue sapped him and we basically left the two unconscious thugs in the ally.

Later, after the game, it was discussed that my paladin's actions on the swordsman were harsh. Some said they thought it "unpaladin-like". The words "torture" and "maiming" were bandied about. As I explained then, let me explain here my reasoning for my action regarding the swordsman thug specifically:

Turning him over to the local "law" would have been a waste of time. The authorities seem to pretty much not care what violence happens in the streets, so long as it doesn't harm "important personages". Apparently contracted amushes is an accepted practice in this town, so what would they hold the thug for? If we just let these guys go free, we may well have to face them again in another ambush the next day. Eventually, the bad guys will win if given enough opportunities. So, my paladin broke the thug's sword hand to prevent him from using it against us at least for however long it takes for bones to mend (assuming he can't get clerical healing). Considering that these thugs in general had just tried to *kill* all of us, and this thug in particular had stabbed our cleric PC (5 damage to a 1st level character) in the fight, and he only gave up when tripped and commanded to stay down after all his comrades had fallen or fled, I didn't think a broken hand and having to sit on the sidelines for a while was an bad trade for this guy. In the hands of a non-paladin, he may have ended up dead in that ally.

As for the mage, I couldn't think of any way of temporarily gimping him (hindering his spellcasting) without at least breaking both hands (rendering him unable to even care for himself). So we just took his spell component pouch and left him with his negative hit points (but stabalized) and handful of subdual damage.

On hindsight, now, I think perhaps we could have dropped the thugs off at some "safe place" rather than leaving them in a dark ally, but we really didn't think of it at the time. We just figured they'll wake up in several hours and make their own way home.

So, what do you think of this action?

For the record: My paladin was not "punished" in any way by the DM. The DM and other Players said they were surprised and shocked at my paladin's action, but no one said anything about stripping him of his paladinhood. They all seemed to think the action was brutal, but not completely stepping over the line into Evil territory.

I was surprised and shocked that anyone thought the actions were particularly harsh for a paladin. The hired killers will (presumedly) awaken with headaches, a busted sword hand, and a lesson not to attack us.

Thinking back on the situation now, metagaming, we probably could just have let the two guys go free unharmed, because its not like a DM (any DM) lacks for bad guys to throw at the PCs, whether one or two are captured or gimped. Breaking this guy's hand won't mean that the next ambush we are victims of will have only 7 thugs instead of 8 because this one guy is out of action for a while. But in the heat of the game, I didn't think like that.

Quasqueton

 

[KenM]

Sounds like you guys are running in the first Freeport module.

 

[Quasqueton]

Sounds like you guys are running in the first Freeport module.

Yes, so no spoilers at all in this thread please.

Quasqueton

 

[Sir Whiskers]

As always, it depends a lot on what code of conduct your paladin adheres to. If the focus is on "lawful", your actions were borderline at best, probably a transgression. If your focus is on "justice", your actions were more appropriate. If your focus is on "redemption", you blew it.

Consider that the thug is just a hired hand. By acknowledging this fact, allowing him to go free with a warning not to bother the party again, and a promise of protection if he ever helped the party, you had the opportunity to gain an ally (or neutralize a potential enemy) at no real cost to the party. If he did later join your side, you've gained a convert. And if he doesn't change and later participates in an attack on you - deal with him appropriately. Same with the wizard.

I'm reminded of a campaign I ran several years ago. The party was ambushed and captured a couple of the grunts. While they were being interrogated, I decided on the spur of the moment that the "thugs" were simple farmers who'd been pressed into serving a bandit gang. The party took pity on them, dragging them along to a local monastery, where the two npc's were able to gain honest work. Months later the npc's rewarded the party's actions by sending them warning of a plot aimed at the party.

Going forward, I'd suggest sitting down with the GM to agree on your paladin's code, then communicate it (prefereably in-game) to the other players. That should stop a lot of the recriminations and criticisms you're facing now.

 

[kirinke]

well. it also depends on what sort of paladin you play and what deity you follow. Followers of St. Cuthbert, Torm and the like would have no problem doing what your character did. From what you've told me, you did the appropriate thing. or as appropriate under the circumstances. Brutal yes. But hay, you didn't slit their throats. And any character other than a paladin probably would.

heheh. me, i probably would have stripped them to their underwear and painted something vile on their chests.... but that's just me.

 

[Ozmar]

Quas,

I could see myself playing a paladin either way:

1. Let the guy go, praying for mercy and providence to show him the error of his ways.

2. Recognizing that justice is not coming from the authorities of this place, he takes it on himself to administer justice and mete out punishment. Branding and injury such as this is presumably accepted practice in fantasy medieval society, so breaking his hand is appropriate.

In either case, you don't unduly put out your companions, to whom you have a duty of loyalty. For example, you shouldn't take it on yourself to incarcerate the bad guy b/c it places an undue burden on your companions, as well as yourself, since you have other duties (like solving this mystery).

Ultimately, no matter which way I played it, I'd be frank with the DM. "Do you think that my paladin's actions were evil? If so, then he'll change his ways. What does his god teach about such things in your game world?" If the DM doesn't have a problem with it, then you're ok. The paladin answers to his god and conscience, not necessarily to his companions' sense of propriety (although of course the paladin does have a responsibility to be fair and sensible in dealing with his companions).

If you are all right with your DM's vision of LG, then you can enjoy the in-character RPing opportunities with your companions. Just make it clear that, while you won't go out of your way to make life difficult for them, your actions don't necessarily conform to their conceptions of paladinhood (unless they are also paladins, of course.

Later!
Ozmar the Paladin

 

[Quasqueton]

Since it seems to be the lens everyone is looking through to see the issue:

My paladin is a worshipper of Torm in the Forgotten Realms setting. I don't have the FR books, so what I know of Torm is basically that he is the paladin's paladin god. From what I've gathered, his doctrine pretty much follows the core PHB paladin outlook and code. So that is how I play this guy -- right out of the PHB code and description.

Quasqueton

 

[Telperion]

The first thing to do is have a talk with your DM and specify your Code of Conduct as clearly as possible. In any Good campaign where there are paladin characters I consider this very important. It keeps things flowing smoothly and everyone is on the same page. If there is an unclear case then the paladin can usually go ask advice from a cleric. It's what they are there for, after all.

In this case it is a judgment call really. This all depends on how your DM handles Code of Conduct and local law. In a rough city like this the law is something like: the strong do as they please and the weak whimper as they can.

I'll give my interpretation of the standard Code of Conduct as presented in the PHB 3.5 on page 44. Your DM may or may not disagree, and it is his right to do so...

A paladin is supposed to follow and uphold whatever local laws abide in any given area, and therefore "respect legitimate authority". If, however, the paladin sees the law / legitimate authority itself as Evil, then he cannot follow the standards, because he would be breaking other parts of the Code of Conduct. If this sort of a case comes up it is the duty of a paladin to dispence justice in a place where there is no existing law, or fight against a system that isn't just from his point of view.

While dispensing justice a paladin is forced to make judgment calls, which may or may not be correct when viewed with hindsight. It is likely that a paladin will make mistakes, but he shouldn't be stripped of his paladinhood because of a misjudgment. Rather, he should learn from it and make reparations where possible, if he deems his own actions as unsuitable when the matter is studied afterwards. This is a learning progress, and a low-level paladin isn't expected to know everything. I would, however, suggest taking Knowledge (law) or Knowledge (religion), and asking the DM's opinion on these things (via the die roll) in the future.

Okay, and now to the present case.

As a DM I would have been okay with the breaking of the thug's sword arm and keeping the wizard unconscious and tied up. What I wouldn't have accepted was leaving the pair of the tied up in an alley where anyone could happen by and then do what they wanted with the helpless thug and wizard. Especially the wizard should have been handled better, because a stabilized character is not out of trouble yet. If he had negative hitpoints, then he can still die without ever waking up.

Other than that I have no quelms with the situation as you presented it. Sometimes a paladin needs to be the hand that delivers judgment and punishment if there is no one else to do it. Better him that someone else whose ethics and morals aren't suited for the job. Watch out though: there are plenty of paladin's who have traveled down this road before your character. It's a tricky path and quite a few have lost their way...

 

[Telperion]

Ah...I probably should stop writing these long synopses, because everyone else writes their replies while I'm still grinding trough the text. O' well...

 

[Asmo]

Our dm recently bought the first part of the Freeport adventure path serie..mmm can´t wait.


Asmo