Another Wall of Force question

[gfunk]

A person with sufficiently quick reflexes could foil this spell - a save would not be out of the question.

Sure they could, if:

(a) They had ranks in Spellcraft and were able to figure out what was being cast at them

(b) They had readied an action to specifically stick out their hand when the caster finished his spell

You can't just take an action whenever you feel like it.

If a PC actually goes through such lengths to prevent being caught in a Wall of Force, I say let him!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Again where does it even say you can trap people in a wall of force. They mention it as a possible tactic under wall of ice. Sure it says save none, but since there is no mention of an attack component to the spell (trapping people) you would get no save since you aren't saving against anything. There could be a reason why they didn't put trapping people in under the spell description like they did under wall of ice, maybe because you can't do it.

 

[twjensen]

interesting point

The other wall spells are much more specific about actually being able to attack. Perhaps the "anything breaking the plane" rule makes putting a wall of force around a moving, active combatant so insanely difficult that no wizard would ever try it. Would be nice if WoTC would say so, in that case.

I'm inclined to house rule it that any spell that doesn't have a saving throw and doesn't specify rules for attacking by using the spell cannot be used to attack.

Would be good to get some sage feedback. I'm still house ruling it, but it would be nice to know if I am using the "official" interpretation of an apparently ambiguous spell.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Again where does it even say you can trap people in a wall of force. They mention it as a possible tactic under wall of ice.

And they have to mention it, because wall of ice allows a saving throw in this situation, which they can't explain without mentioning it.

It's beyond me why they would have to mention that creating an impenetrable hemispherical wall could trap someone for it to still be true. It's nonsense to think that they have to explain the simple cause-and-effect implications of every spell in all situations, when they already explain what the spell does. You can make a hemisherical force wall. You can place spells anywhere within range if you have line of effect. The spell has no saving throw. No further explanation is necessary.

Whether this is something the DM finds desirable is a separate topic, but I see no validity to the argument that you can't trap people simply because it isn't specifically mentioned.

 

[Uller]

Actually, a wall of force should require a reflex save. If you are trying to cage an opponent, all he has to do to twart your spell is stick his arm to an edge when it is formed.

"The wall of force must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails."

There are reasons that forcecage is a 7th level spell.

Cheesy munchkins.

Oh...so following the R_U_L_E_S is munchkinny? Okay...perhaps you outta take this to the house rules forum.

Whether or not _you_ think Wall of Force should allow a save is not what we are talking about. The spell description clearly states that it does not.

I'm not going to bohter reasoning why it doesn't...it just doesn't. I've not seen anything from the designers or from WotC to lead me to believe this was not their intent.

DMs need to carefully adjuticate this spell...NOTHING can break the wall or the spell fails. So no sticks, no bushes, no other creatures, nothing...The bigger the wall, the harder it can be to successfully cast. You wanna trap something 12' tall(or 24' long)? You've got to be at least a 12th level caster(and that assumes your target hasn't got any limbs or weapons sticking out past the area of effect.

As for whether or not you can catch a creature inside the wall...of course you can. The spell description doesn't say you can't.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Considering every other wall spell mentions how it can be used as an attack or to trap people, the lack of any mention in wall of force is very conspicuous. Countless times people assumed the rules or spells should also do something because it made sense to them, and frequently some rules guru from wizards would say if it doesn't say you can do it in the spell you can't.

1: it doesn't mention any trapping, or attack funciton.
2: every other wall spell does mention the above.
3: no save, on a 5th level wall spell that provides a fantastic protection funciton already, and is only one level higher than the Otilicks sphere spell which is specifically made to capture, and yet gives a save, one level higher than wall of ice signifigantly weaker, and gives a save on top of that.

I think the combo of point 1 and 2 is fairly important. I think if the spell was meant to be able to capture people in it they would of mentioned it like they did in every other wall spell. The lack of any mention is surprising to me, and probably isn't just because there is no save and they knew we all could figure it out.

 

[Sagiro]

(edit - spelling error)

Just to finish up this old debate:

I sent the following to the Sage:

"If you try to enclose someone with a hemispherical Wall of Force, do they get any sort of save to avoid being trapped? By the book, the answer is a clear "no." The question arises from the fact that the previous PH entry, Wall of Ice, specifically mentions that targets *do* get a save from this use of the spell. That leads one to think that there should have been a mention, one way or the other, for Wall of Force. Was the omission intentional?"

The answer:

"Yup (higher-level spell)."

So there is no save. As Dr. Rictus points out, the onus is on the game designers to point out when there is an exception to the natural cause-and-effect fallout of a spell's base description.

(I note that in the same way, the description of the wall of fire spell doesn't say there's a save if you use the "ring of fire" option to surround someone with the hot-side facing in. As with the hemispherical wall of force, it doesn't go out of its say to say that you can use this feature to trap opponents, but it seems clear to me that you can.)

Obviously you can house-rule this sort of thing any way you want, but by the official rules there is no save againt these spells used in these ways. Any further debate should probably take place in the House Rules forum.

-Sagiro

 

[Uller]

Considering every other wall spell mentions how it can be used as an attack or to trap people, the lack of any mention in wall of force is very conspicuous. Countless times people assumed the rules or spells should also do something because it made sense to them, and frequently some rules guru from wizards would say if it doesn't say you can do it in the spell you can't.

By this rationale, spells can never be used for anything other than exactly what their spell descriptions say they can be used for. So...as a simple example...if a cleric wanted a to use Create Food and Water to put out a fire, he couldn't do it because the spell does not say that the water could be used for this purpose.

1: it doesn't mention any trapping, or attack funciton.
2: every other wall spell does mention the above.
3: no save, on a 5th level wall spell that provides a fantastic protection funciton already, and is only one level higher than the Otilicks sphere spell which is specifically made to capture, and yet gives a save, one level higher than wall of ice signifigantly weaker, and gives a save on top of that.

Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere is much more difficult to escape than hemispherical Wall of Force.

I think the combo of point 1 and 2 is fairly important. I think if the spell was meant to be able to capture people in it they would of mentioned it like they did in every other wall spell. The lack of any mention is surprising to me, and probably isn't just because there is no save and they knew we all could figure it out.

I would say the opposite. It is so obvious that a hemispherical wall of force could be used to trap an opponent, I think they'd mention it if they didn't want you to use it for that purpose.

 

[Aven]

Considering every other wall spell mentions how it can be used as an attack or to trap people, the lack of any mention in wall of force is very conspicuous.

Web doesn't mention that you can sling it between some trees as a hammock with a built-in alarm clock, but i'm pretty sure you could pull it off. If a spell doesn't say you _Can't_ do something, then i'm inclined to let my players do it, or at least try. Seems to me that what makes the most sense so far is to only allow those players with ready actions and a clue as to what is about to happen to make a save.

 

[Uller]

Web doesn't mention that you can sling it between some trees as a hammock with a built-in alarm clock, but i'm pretty sure you could pull it off. If a spell doesn't say you _Can't_ do something, then i'm inclined to let my players do it, or at least try. Seems to me that what makes the most sense so far is to only allow those players with ready actions and a clue as to what is about to happen to make a save.

Heck...I wouldn't even require a save in most cases(edit: when the target knows what is being cast and has readied an action to deal with it)...if they can reasonably reach the edge with a weapon or something, they can disrupt the spell automatically, IMO.