Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Hey, I could really use some feedback here!!! 
Please help!
Please help!
Anti-Paladin core class and variant Paladin for review!
Kaptain_Kantrip said:Hey, I could really use some feedback here!!!
Please help!
Well, apart from removing Heroic Surge, I'm also restricting the anti-paladin to CE alignment, LE would be more an 'evil paladin' than an anti-paladin IMO.
Personally I don't think the PHB Paladin is underpowered; there's a good reason why they can't beat Fighters in combat - if they could, no one would play Fighters. Because there are no longer stat restrictions on Paladins they needed to be reduced in power compared to 1e/2e.
MythandLore
First Post
It's not the same but our group broke the Paladin into 9 sub-class along time ago, one for each alignment.
It's just real basic stuff, but it's worked well for us.
Some people like what we did, some people don't.
I don't really care what people think about our class changes.
But maybe you can get some ideas from it.
Paladin Sub-classes
All have Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Courage and Special Mount.
Alignment changes: if you change alignment you loses all your Paladin Sub-class abilities and your Special Mount until you atone and gain one level, at the beginning of the new level you may return to your paladin sub-class if you atoned and returned to your old alignment or replace your old sub-class with one that works with you new alignment if you have not atoned.
Defender Paladin - Lawful Good
Smite Evil and Chaos – Cast Cure Spells – Heal Touch – Remove Disease – Detect Evil
Revenger Paladin - Neutral Good
Smite Evil - Cast Cure Spells – Heal Touch – Remove Disease - Detect Evil - Turn Undead
Avenger Paladin - Chaotic Good
Smite Evil and Chaos - Cast Cure Spells – Heal Touch – Remove Disease - Detect Evil
Punisher Paladin - Lawful Neutral
Smite Chaos - Cast Inflict Spells – Heal and Harm Touch - Detect Chaos - Turn Undead
Retaliator Paladin - True Neutral
Cast Cure and Inflict Spells – Heal and Harm Touch – Turn and Rebuke Undead
Destroyer Paladin - Chaotic Neutral
Smite Law - Cast Cure Spells – Heal and Harm Touch - Detect Law - Rebuke Undead
Ravager Paladin - Chaotic Evil
Smite Good and Law - Cast Inflict Spells - Harm Touch - Cause Disease - Detect Good
Devastator Paladin - Neutral Evil
Smite Good - Cast Inflict Spells - Harm Touch - Cause Disease - Detect Good - Rebuke Undead
Slayer Paladin - Lawful Evil
Smite Good and Chaos - Cast Inflict Spells - Harm Touch - Cause Disease - Detect Good
Paladin Sub-classes powers
Smites as Smite evil but for specific alignments – Harm touch as Lay on hands but does damage instead, this ability may be “channeled” thru a melee weapon during an attack, but if it misses it is lost as if used, must be announced before attack is made, this is a full round action – Heal Touch as Lay on hands, this is a standard action – Paladin Sub-classes that have both of one type of power can use both evenly (i.e. use Heal touch for 40 points and Harm touch 40 points in a one day period)
It's just real basic stuff, but it's worked well for us.
Some people like what we did, some people don't.
I don't really care what people think about our class changes.
But maybe you can get some ideas from it.
Paladin Sub-classes
All have Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Courage and Special Mount.
Alignment changes: if you change alignment you loses all your Paladin Sub-class abilities and your Special Mount until you atone and gain one level, at the beginning of the new level you may return to your paladin sub-class if you atoned and returned to your old alignment or replace your old sub-class with one that works with you new alignment if you have not atoned.
Defender Paladin - Lawful Good
Smite Evil and Chaos – Cast Cure Spells – Heal Touch – Remove Disease – Detect Evil
Revenger Paladin - Neutral Good
Smite Evil - Cast Cure Spells – Heal Touch – Remove Disease - Detect Evil - Turn Undead
Avenger Paladin - Chaotic Good
Smite Evil and Chaos - Cast Cure Spells – Heal Touch – Remove Disease - Detect Evil
Punisher Paladin - Lawful Neutral
Smite Chaos - Cast Inflict Spells – Heal and Harm Touch - Detect Chaos - Turn Undead
Retaliator Paladin - True Neutral
Cast Cure and Inflict Spells – Heal and Harm Touch – Turn and Rebuke Undead
Destroyer Paladin - Chaotic Neutral
Smite Law - Cast Cure Spells – Heal and Harm Touch - Detect Law - Rebuke Undead
Ravager Paladin - Chaotic Evil
Smite Good and Law - Cast Inflict Spells - Harm Touch - Cause Disease - Detect Good
Devastator Paladin - Neutral Evil
Smite Good - Cast Inflict Spells - Harm Touch - Cause Disease - Detect Good - Rebuke Undead
Slayer Paladin - Lawful Evil
Smite Good and Chaos - Cast Inflict Spells - Harm Touch - Cause Disease - Detect Good
Paladin Sub-classes powers
Smites as Smite evil but for specific alignments – Harm touch as Lay on hands but does damage instead, this ability may be “channeled” thru a melee weapon during an attack, but if it misses it is lost as if used, must be announced before attack is made, this is a full round action – Heal Touch as Lay on hands, this is a standard action – Paladin Sub-classes that have both of one type of power can use both evenly (i.e. use Heal touch for 40 points and Harm touch 40 points in a one day period)
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Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
S'mon said:
Well, apart from removing Heroic Surge, I'm also restricting the anti-paladin to CE alignment, LE would be more an 'evil paladin' than an anti-paladin IMO.
Personally I don't think the PHB Paladin is underpowered; there's a good reason why they can't beat Fighters in combat - if they could, no one would play Fighters. Because there are no longer stat restrictions on Paladins they needed to be reduced in power compared to 1e/2e.
I disagree that the PHB paladin is underpowered. Every time we have used them they have been woefully lacking compared to their fighter counterparts. I mean, fighters should be the best at fighting (most feats) but as written, there is no reason to play a paladin when you can play a cleric/fighter and get better results. I'm trying to find a way to make the class "sexy" and "exciting" as well as powerful, which is what they should be. The new core class I made almost has me wanting to play one, and I hate paladins, LOL. It is powerful, but has a different focus than the fighter. The Heroic Surge ability is supposed to emulate in game mechanics just how zealous/fanatical and determined these characters are in the face of danger. Their extreme (perhaps blind) faith allows them to briefly "power up" to help ensure their mission is accomplished.
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Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
MythandLore said:
Thanks for the ideas! I do, however, prefer a simpler approach of just two types for all alignments (except True Neutral).
I think the remove disease and smite evil abilities in the PHB are super weak and don't make up for the feats a fighter would have had at the same level. The continued "upgrading" of multiple uses of remove disease is a horribly lame "reward" for advancing to higher levels, especially when compared to many other classes. How many lepers can you meet? Personally, I would like to remove "remove disease" from the paladin and "contagion" from the anti-paladin, to replace them with something more useful. I'm just not sure what (want it to be balanced).
EDIT: Just replaced remove disease/contagion in original post with: endurance (1/day, self only, 1 hour duration). This is not only extremely useful, but simulates their fanatical determination to overcome all odds.
Maybe it is overpowered now... should I reduce HD to d8?
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Kaptain_Kantrip said:
I think Paladins should be a rare choice for PCs (so should Monks, Druids & Bards), and the way to do that in 3e is to make them not obviously very powerful, since they're a core class available to anyone. You conception of a Paladin does seem closer to a prestige class, to me. If you make Paladins tough, they'll become more common as PCs.
Your point about Fighter-Clerics is interesting: it comes up because multiclassing is very easy in 3e and the Cleric class is clearly more powerful than the others (including Paladin). This seems to be an attempt to get people to play Clerics, since a Cleric in the party is vital for the CR system to work. Paladins do have some powers clerics don't, though. Personally I'd suggest playing a Cleric-Paladin if you want good spellcasting power as well as being a Champion of Good (& Order).
Kaptain_Kantrip said:
Heh. and I thought the Paladin was overpowered ... Divine Grace rocks. Plus they get a few spells. Slap on Divine Feats from Defenders of the Faith and the pesky lawful good tag is all that keeps me from playing them more often.
Plus, pick up the Templar prestige class and really make Divine Grace work for you with Mettle! Plus, you get Weapon Specialization and Damage Reduction. Woot!
PS. I let Paladins treat Templar as +1 Class Level or spell progression as normal (ie, a 10th level paladin/1rst level Templar must choose whether to cast as a 11th Paladin or 10th level Paladin and 1rst level Templar). Paladins who choose to combine the spellcasting levels like that must then choose to cast spells only from the Paladin list or the Templar list. Both choices are permanent.S'mon said:
That'd require an exception to the 'no paladin multiclassing' rule, but I think it'd be justifiable. Or you could switch from Paladin to Cleric after 5th level, say. But really I have no problem with 'weak' paladins, the overpowered 3e cleric is IMO much more ripe for tweaking - *yet* I still see hardly any cleric PCs in my games, no matter how many gimmes they get. If people were actually wanting to play clerics, I'd limit them. With so few, it doesn't seem worth it.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Thanks for the discussion of the merits of whether or not buffing the paladin is needed or not, but I am determined to change the paladin and introduce the anti-paladin IMC. Therefore, discussions of whether or not this is smart are rather pointless, as it's going to happen for my campaign regardless...
What I really need is *specific input* on the classes in my original post. I want them "beefy" but not superpowered. I just want them to be viable options for players to consider. As the paladin stands in the PHB, no one will play one in my group. That may not change even with the cool "gimme's" I'm adding, but at least the group will be SCARED when we meet the next NPC Paladin, LOL. I expect more PCs IMC will take the anti-paladin class, as we tend to be an evil or CN aligned group anyway, LOL.
So, what specific changes to my anti-paladin and paladin core class variant should be made to make them more or less balanced with the other classes?
Leave as is?
Change HD to d8, but leave as is otherwise?
Note: The reason the spell list is like that of a sorcerer is that by the time these guys get spells, the spells are of little help, being 4 levels behind a real caster and casting from a limited list. By upping their spells per day, they at least can DO something.
What I really need is *specific input* on the classes in my original post. I want them "beefy" but not superpowered. I just want them to be viable options for players to consider. As the paladin stands in the PHB, no one will play one in my group. That may not change even with the cool "gimme's" I'm adding, but at least the group will be SCARED when we meet the next NPC Paladin, LOL. I expect more PCs IMC will take the anti-paladin class, as we tend to be an evil or CN aligned group anyway, LOL.
So, what specific changes to my anti-paladin and paladin core class variant should be made to make them more or less balanced with the other classes?
Leave as is?
Change HD to d8, but leave as is otherwise?
Note: The reason the spell list is like that of a sorcerer is that by the time these guys get spells, the spells are of little help, being 4 levels behind a real caster and casting from a limited list. By upping their spells per day, they at least can DO something.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Jeez, I never thought it would be this hard to get feedback, LOL. A little On Topic help here would sure be appreciated...
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