Geoff Watson
First Post
Andrew D. Gable said:
Thats all that's worth reading.
There's also plenty of bad GM advice.
Geoff.
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
any chummers out there still play Shadowrun? (also: d20 vs SR 3ed)
- Thread starter GlassJaw
- Start date
Thats all that's worth reading.
There's also plenty of bad GM advice.
Geoff.
Acid_crash
First Post
Everytime I think of SR being converted to d20, it gives me nightmares. Can't sleep at night, horrible images of trying to come up with proper classes to represent a Street Samurai, Decker, Shaman, Physical Adept, Combat Mage, etc...which we all know are stereotypes of the most common archtypes presented in the game.
And I think that when all of us think of converting Shadowrun to d20, we know that it's a pain in the butt. I think we are doing it the wrong way.
I say we convert d20 to Shadowrun, not Shadowrun to d20. How do you think that would work out?
And I think that when all of us think of converting Shadowrun to d20, we know that it's a pain in the butt. I think we are doing it the wrong way.
I say we convert d20 to Shadowrun, not Shadowrun to d20. How do you think that would work out?
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Acid_crash said:
Most of these could be done in D20 Modern and Future.
Street Samurai: using Future cybergear, you would need an internal weapon mount with a melee weapon (for the claws), targeting optics (smart gun, minor rule changes) and nightvision optics. With a Con of 14 that doesn't even cost you extra Cybertaker feaets.
Decker: get yourself a cybernetic minicomputer, that's about it.
Mages are harder to do... you would need to invent new spells, say, their version of sleep would inflict fatigue, exhaustion and then finally sleep.
Shadowrun, my precious...GlassJaw said:
As for wich books to start playing :
Basic handbook : has enough to start really, you don't need the other books, but some help.
Companion is nice, point-based character build, the best option to Build Better Basterds. Meta-races are weird, sometimes cool, sometimes fairly limited, but offcourse, playing a cyclops is kinda cool. Then you've got rules for playing otaku, ghouls, and werebeasts.
Magic in the shadows : more spells, spellcaster variants (voodoo, wo-xing or whatever), adept powers and initiation rules. You don't really need it to start, use it when you've played a bit.
Man and machine : more cyber-, nano- and bioware, with rules about cybermancy and other weird stuff. My personal feeling is that alot of the extra cyberware are gadgets, like telescoping legs, lasereyes, stuff like that. You don't really need it. There is some more interesting stuff in there, but your game won't suffer if you don't have it.
Cannon companion : Guns, guns, guns and some more guns. There are some more combat rules, martial arts rules and they've hidden the Form-Fitting Body-Armor in there, the Street-Sammy Underwear-of-the-year Award-winner. If you wanna know how much damage a dwarf does when you grab him 'round the ankles and smash him into a sec-guard, this is the book for you. Optional rules that complicate the combat, once again your game won't suffer if you don't have it.
Matrix : Hmmm. This greatly enhances the rules 'bout deckers, with deckbuilding and software writing rules, some new utilities and new ways to screw over your players. Double-edged sword here, 'cause it'll make your decking more complex I'd say go for it.
Rigger 3: A must-have when you wanna play with riggers. All-new ways to build monster-trucks that'll get you through a traffic jam in no time while blasting away those pesky traffic-wardens.
That's the basics. As for add-ons : Paranormal animals is a must-have, since they don't give any critters with the main rules 'cept for spirits. The general area-books are nice, but making a homebrew of the nearest city where you live in is nicer, in my opinion. It adds a certain coolness to the game, and you can more easily remember major landmarks and such. Still, it doesn't hurrt to have an example of a shadowrun city, and the New Seattle is a decent book. As of other background books : if you can hget your paws on Dunkelzahns secrets : portfolio of a dragon you're in uck. It's about a thousand adventure ideas. Threats is nice as well.
Offcourse, this is my own opinion. I think I've got allmost every book available 'cept for some adventures. I love each and every one of them. There's a few novels I haven't read as well. I think. Now if only I could convince my group to start running....
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Bugger, just lost a monologue of about 60 lines. Maybe not a bad thing. Anyway, a quick summary :
The flaws :
Initiative is changed : where the fast guy got to empty a few clips into the sec guards before they could even start to draw their gun, now evryone gets their first action, then evryone the second, etc. I think it's a good thin, bot most die-hard street sammy players are upset because their masterblender is a bit less powerfull. Now you sometimes see an enemy mage cast something instead of just catching lead.
Dicepool are changed. I'm not very happy with this. Now the dicepools refresh at the start of a turn, while they used to refresh at the start of your action. Another clever plot to even the score for those of a slower persuasion, but they cleverly broke a system thet was a bit flawed to start with : hand-to hand combat. Now a physad or street sammy with boosted reflexes that can pound you five times in a round looses all advantage of being able to do so since they don't get extra dice nomatter how many times they attack. Silly silly silly.
Movement in combat : no matter how boosted your reflexes are, you only move quickness*5 meters/round (i think). Once again, silly, since in many of the novels (and the starting story in 2E) street sammies take care when they run or they smack into buildings or run straight through a crowd (and i mean through, in the most splatty way you can imagine). So yes, when you've got boosted reflexes and 5 actions you can run very, very, very fast. Better not miss your athletics roll.
That's the flaws I can remember from the top of my head, easily corrected with a house rule or two.
If you've got any questions, just lemme know.
The flaws :
Initiative is changed : where the fast guy got to empty a few clips into the sec guards before they could even start to draw their gun, now evryone gets their first action, then evryone the second, etc. I think it's a good thin, bot most die-hard street sammy players are upset because their masterblender is a bit less powerfull. Now you sometimes see an enemy mage cast something instead of just catching lead.
Dicepool are changed. I'm not very happy with this. Now the dicepools refresh at the start of a turn, while they used to refresh at the start of your action. Another clever plot to even the score for those of a slower persuasion, but they cleverly broke a system thet was a bit flawed to start with : hand-to hand combat. Now a physad or street sammy with boosted reflexes that can pound you five times in a round looses all advantage of being able to do so since they don't get extra dice nomatter how many times they attack. Silly silly silly.
Movement in combat : no matter how boosted your reflexes are, you only move quickness*5 meters/round (i think). Once again, silly, since in many of the novels (and the starting story in 2E) street sammies take care when they run or they smack into buildings or run straight through a crowd (and i mean through, in the most splatty way you can imagine). So yes, when you've got boosted reflexes and 5 actions you can run very, very, very fast. Better not miss your athletics roll.
That's the flaws I can remember from the top of my head, easily corrected with a house rule or two.
If you've got any questions, just lemme know.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
You`re right, I missed that - that`s probably because that I didn`t design this part of our D20 conversion.
But in fact, I think, the whole concept of Cyberspace/Matrix doesn`t work really well - especially not in SR. The problem is everybody except the decker itself is useless in cyberspace (except maybe on those UV Hosts). Add in a complictated rule system, and the rest of the group can take a nap while the decker is getting the info.
Why? To avoid drain, you needed willpower. And it would be even better if you had good Intelligence and Willpower to have a big magic pool that would allow you to add some dice to your "will save" vs. drain. Trolls sucked at spellcasting with their -2 Intelligence and -2 Charisma...
The general flaw is the whole d6 system. A seemingly small modifier - like a +2 - can make a commonly made task (like with a target number of 4) to an extremely difficult task (target number 6). Rolling 6 dice, you just got from an average 3 successes to 1 success. And for most tasks, you want more than one success. (that`s the reason why nearly everybody will want to use a smartgun: Targetnumber -2 for all attacks with smartweapons!)
The sheer number of dice rolled might seem fun, too, but that does only apply to the players. If you attempt to master a bigger combat with multiple NPCs, incorporating modifiers for sight, range and so on, you will get a headache assigning target numbers at one time and taking your own actions...
The shotgun rules are ridiculous as well. You can freely chose the choke - the weapons "spread" - and this allows you to hit multiple targets. This does only affect the powerniveau of the attack (the DC to reduce the damage), not the damageniveau, but it does reduce your attack rolls to effectively 2 regardles of circumstances and range. If you roll 6 dice (a typical number for a starting character in his primary skills), this means 5 success on average, not using any dice pool or other special benefits. Now, your enemy has to roll 5 success to possibly negate the attack alltogether (considering this task has a minimum DC of 4, and even a cyberupped street samurai has probalby not much more than 8 dice for this purpose). If this dodge attempt fails, he has to resist against the damage. His target number is probably 2, but he now has to roll 8 successes plus any success left from the attack to take no damage. And this was your first attack. You still have one left - and you didn´t use your own combat pool, not a burst-capable shotgun, and we didn`t account for his comrade who did also stand within the "cone of death" of your shotgun.
Well, but this problem can be handled...
Magic also has its problems: A spellcaster can always arrange to avoid any drain from spellcasting. Using most of his magic pool and having a high willpower, he only has to choose the spells to cast wisely (don´t bother with Fireball, Stunball is much more efficient...)
If you add in some bioware like the "traumadampener", you can even ignore any light drain left. Okay, this effectively reduces your magic attribute by at least one point (and you can`t do anything against it, even though bioware is claimed being less harmful to the essence and the body of a character).
Better use the remaining points of bioware you can spend wisely (maybe a Cerebralbooster for better Intelligence, or a Mnemotic Enhancer for cheaper skill increases)
Unfortunately, if you make it more difficult to resist drain, spellcasters will beomce unplayable, since this will cause damage modifiers to your target numbers, and as I said in the first part above, these numbers can make a "walk in the palk" to a "near-death experience"...
Okay, this might come as quite negative towards Shadowrun, but there are also several positive aspects -
The background is great and being a classless game makes it extremely flexible and interesting.
The game will certainly allow you to have several fun sessions of gaming - maybe you will find ways to handle the weaknesses of the game (like the shotgun rules, not all are inherent and unsolvable).
If you want to adapt the game, go for it, especially if you aren´t familiar with the current incarnation and not that accustomed to the flair set by the rules.
If you want the full Shadowrun Experience, you`ll need the 3rd edition books, no question. (You might even want them for an adaption, for ideas of spells or cyberware...)
Mustrum Ridcully
the_dunner
First Post
I find the Shadowrun game world to be one of the most immersive and enthralling game worlds to date. Over the last 15 years, FASA and now FanPro have developed a tremendously detailed world with an awful lot of attitude. I've been playing the game on and off for most of that time, and like to think I've got a fairly decent handle on both the game and the setting.
As others have said, if you want to learn Shadowrun and play it, start off with the third edition core rules, and go from there. There are a few things that would work well in a d20 conversion, but quite a few that don't seem to translate well. While the Shadowrun rules are clunky and quite different from the d20 rules, they do have a bit of their own charm.
A few points that I'd looked into while considering a conversion:
-There's a LOT of cyberwear out there for Shadowrun, there's not a lot out there for d20. Working up the conversions for a decent amount of Shadowrun gear would be non-trivial.
-After looking through OGL Cybernet and d20 Future for cybernetics rules, I don't think either of these really fit with the Shadowrun setting. Shadowrun needs a hard cap to the amount of cybernetics that a user can have to carry through its "look and feel."
-Grim Tales could do a decent job of reflecting how drain works for spellcasting in Shadowrun. However, Shadowrun spellcasters start off quite a bit more powerful than they do in d20. Further, I'm not aware of any d20 system for spirit summoning that could reflect spirits in Shadowrun.
-Initiative is one of the better aspects of the Shadowrun game, and it does a good job of reflecting the edges given by cybernetics and magic. Converting this to d20 and having it remain (somewhat) balanced would be a non-trivial issue.
-Character generation in Shadowrun is munchkin-esque, but it's a system with a lot of tweaks in the interest of game balance. Translating those tweaks to d20 would be challenging.
-Shadowrun's system allows for fairly find distinctions in damage codes between different weapons -- far more distinction than is found in d20 Modern. While I'm not terribly picky about this one, the gun nuts in your gaming group may be.
-I generally find the Decking issues to be moot. While I love the idea of Matrix runs and Deckers, I find that decking isn't a good use of time during a game session. (Too much focus on a single player for an extended period of time.) So, while OGL Cybernet *might* have a workable system for this, it's something that I'd blow off either way.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some issues, but those are the most important ones that came to mind when I looked into options for a conversion.
As others have said, if you want to learn Shadowrun and play it, start off with the third edition core rules, and go from there. There are a few things that would work well in a d20 conversion, but quite a few that don't seem to translate well. While the Shadowrun rules are clunky and quite different from the d20 rules, they do have a bit of their own charm.
A few points that I'd looked into while considering a conversion:
-There's a LOT of cyberwear out there for Shadowrun, there's not a lot out there for d20. Working up the conversions for a decent amount of Shadowrun gear would be non-trivial.
-After looking through OGL Cybernet and d20 Future for cybernetics rules, I don't think either of these really fit with the Shadowrun setting. Shadowrun needs a hard cap to the amount of cybernetics that a user can have to carry through its "look and feel."
-Grim Tales could do a decent job of reflecting how drain works for spellcasting in Shadowrun. However, Shadowrun spellcasters start off quite a bit more powerful than they do in d20. Further, I'm not aware of any d20 system for spirit summoning that could reflect spirits in Shadowrun.
-Initiative is one of the better aspects of the Shadowrun game, and it does a good job of reflecting the edges given by cybernetics and magic. Converting this to d20 and having it remain (somewhat) balanced would be a non-trivial issue.
-Character generation in Shadowrun is munchkin-esque, but it's a system with a lot of tweaks in the interest of game balance. Translating those tweaks to d20 would be challenging.
-Shadowrun's system allows for fairly find distinctions in damage codes between different weapons -- far more distinction than is found in d20 Modern. While I'm not terribly picky about this one, the gun nuts in your gaming group may be.
-I generally find the Decking issues to be moot. While I love the idea of Matrix runs and Deckers, I find that decking isn't a good use of time during a game session. (Too much focus on a single player for an extended period of time.) So, while OGL Cybernet *might* have a workable system for this, it's something that I'd blow off either way.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some issues, but those are the most important ones that came to mind when I looked into options for a conversion.
GlassJaw
Hero
I'm glad to see all the positive comments supporting SR. Just thinking about playing it again gives me shivers. 
I've pretty much decided to go along with the consensus and not attempt a d20 conversion. I've battled through the 1e/2ed rules so I think I can handle 3ed.
Seems like this is a common feeling. No one in our group used to play deckers. What we used to do (or the GM) was either not require a decker for the jobs, have one provided to us by Mr. Johnson, or hire one if we needed one. What the decker actually "did" was determined by the GM. This can lead to some interesting role-playing and storylines as well (Do we really trust this guy? Will he bring the security system down in time?). Of course, if we get thrifty and cut corners in hiring, that might reflect how we do on the job.
Also, I just wanted ask again where people thought the best place to get the SR books is. Thanks again.
I've pretty much decided to go along with the consensus and not attempt a d20 conversion. I've battled through the 1e/2ed rules so I think I can handle 3ed.
Seems like this is a common feeling. No one in our group used to play deckers. What we used to do (or the GM) was either not require a decker for the jobs, have one provided to us by Mr. Johnson, or hire one if we needed one. What the decker actually "did" was determined by the GM. This can lead to some interesting role-playing and storylines as well (Do we really trust this guy? Will he bring the security system down in time?). Of course, if we get thrifty and cut corners in hiring, that might reflect how we do on the job.
Also, I just wanted ask again where people thought the best place to get the SR books is. Thanks again.
Inconsequenti-AL
Breaks Games
If you're patient, then ebay will net the best prices... and there's quite a lot on there. Got to be a bit careful about what edition you end up buying for... I tend to pick my stuff up there or browsing my local gaming shop.
IMO, the setting is fantastic and the rules aren't bad either. Looks like I might finally get to play soon. GMed several campaigns over about 5 years. One of my old players is collecting a small group together for a new game. Yay!
As it stands, I'm in two minds about the splatbooks. Some of the content is really great - inititiation from magic in the shadows is a real good for mages and psyads... Some of the Man and Machine cybernetics also add to the game.
Unfortunately I don't think all the content is as good. If I was GMing a fresh group, I'd buy the splat books and keep them as GM material. Select which stuff to introduce to the game on a case by case basis... introduce others as new tech during a game.
A lot of the better stuff is in 1st edition and would probably convert over fairly easily with just the main book.
One beef with the system is that I find it works badly with large groups. I've had a lot of fun with GM + 3-4 players, but IME combat can really bog down with much more than that. Main reason we stopped playing.
Another one is the spoilers. They talk about a lot of stuff in the various books without marking them in any way as GM material - one of my players read all about toxic, blood and bug spirits while browsing the magic book. Right in the middle of me running them through the Universal Brotherhood plotline. Tends to remove the shock from certain plotlines.
As far as the 1st ed stuff goes, I owned and used a lot of it. With a slight beefing up of NPCs, most of the modules work well and there's some real classics - Harlequin springs to mind. A lot of the less crunchy material is usable as is - Sprawl sites being one of my favorites.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with a D20 conversion. Think it would be a lot of work, and like others have said, I think there's too much difference between a skill and level based system. If you really want to give it a go, Spycraft might make a decent starting point... either that or D20 Modern/Future and just use the D20 magic systems, cyberware et al. Simply change over to a Shadowrun background?
Finally, in terms of feel, 3rd edition is somewhat higher powered than 1st edition - you tend to get a lot more cybernetics for your essence points. Skills also changed. More points and they're more detailed- examples - firearms is now 5-6 different skills, melee is also 5-6.
/ramblings
IMO, the setting is fantastic and the rules aren't bad either. Looks like I might finally get to play soon. GMed several campaigns over about 5 years. One of my old players is collecting a small group together for a new game. Yay!
As it stands, I'm in two minds about the splatbooks. Some of the content is really great - inititiation from magic in the shadows is a real good for mages and psyads... Some of the Man and Machine cybernetics also add to the game.
Unfortunately I don't think all the content is as good. If I was GMing a fresh group, I'd buy the splat books and keep them as GM material. Select which stuff to introduce to the game on a case by case basis... introduce others as new tech during a game.
A lot of the better stuff is in 1st edition and would probably convert over fairly easily with just the main book.
One beef with the system is that I find it works badly with large groups. I've had a lot of fun with GM + 3-4 players, but IME combat can really bog down with much more than that. Main reason we stopped playing.
Another one is the spoilers. They talk about a lot of stuff in the various books without marking them in any way as GM material - one of my players read all about toxic, blood and bug spirits while browsing the magic book. Right in the middle of me running them through the Universal Brotherhood plotline. Tends to remove the shock from certain plotlines.
As far as the 1st ed stuff goes, I owned and used a lot of it. With a slight beefing up of NPCs, most of the modules work well and there's some real classics - Harlequin springs to mind. A lot of the less crunchy material is usable as is - Sprawl sites being one of my favorites.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with a D20 conversion. Think it would be a lot of work, and like others have said, I think there's too much difference between a skill and level based system. If you really want to give it a go, Spycraft might make a decent starting point... either that or D20 Modern/Future and just use the D20 magic systems, cyberware et al. Simply change over to a Shadowrun background?
Finally, in terms of feel, 3rd edition is somewhat higher powered than 1st edition - you tend to get a lot more cybernetics for your essence points. Skills also changed. More points and they're more detailed- examples - firearms is now 5-6 different skills, melee is also 5-6.
/ramblings
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