Any crunchy RPG's out there anymore?

[turnip_farmer]

It always amazes me when people have decided that basic math (addition and subtraction) is crunchy or complicated. I don't know if it makes me a snob to NOT want to play with people who fear basic math especially when most phones (even older flip phones) have a calculator on them.

Again, maybe it's not fair of me to say or think this but it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people complain about Pathfinder or Champions as crunchy games.

Maybe we should clarify, Is it crunchy because of the number options or is it because of the math?

Don't worry, embrace your snobbishness. I also look down my nose at people who complain that a game containing nothing more than addition and subtraction of single- or, at worst, double-digit numbers, has too much maths.

But that doesn't mean I want a very crunchy system, at least as I would define it. The problem, as others have said, is not the complexity of the arithmetic, but keeping track of all the conditional modifiers.

"Oh but wait, hang on, you add 2 to that roll because of your height advantage." "But shouldn't there be a negative modifier due to fatigue by this point in the combat? What round are we on?" "Wait, Floppy has the Nippy ability so you subtract his speed bonus from the attack roll too." "No, because I have the Hit the Bugger special ability. Doesn't that cancel it out?" and so on and so forth.

I can handle a lot more of that sort of thing when I'm playing a wargame, but it detracts from the drama of combat in an RPG.

 

[MGibster]

Don't worry, embrace your snobbishness. I also look down my nose at people who complain that a game containing nothing more than addition and subtraction of single- or, at worst, double-digit numbers, has too much maths.

I find it's best practice not to look down on those who have different preferences from mine.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I'm not mocking it. It really is a simple core with a bad rep due to having a ton of tables, and more optional rules than tables. SM was, in fact, the third RPG I owned... I even implemented char gen in Appleworks on an Apple //e. (When I last checked, tho', the file was on a bad sector.) (RM was 3 systems later.)
The few times I've gotten people to play it, they were surprised how well it runs. The problem is the fainting when they find out the the number of calculations in Char Gen... and level up.

The real disincentive is that Experience worksheet. (Everything I mentioned is on it in the editions of RM and SM I've run. And I left out a couple rows.)

I was ribbing you, I knew you weren't mocking the game.

 

[Bilharzia]

What ever happened to crunchy games like Aftermath!, Bushido, Phoenix Command, Battlelords or Dangerous Journeys?

Everything now is D&D5, PbtA or Blades in the Dark. The closest thing I could find was Fragged Empire which considers itself "medium crunchy". I miss the old days when FGU and GDW put out some really interesting stuff. D&D4 was really crunchy and played well with my group.

Is there any call for crunchy anymore?

You might enjoy Mythras, it is the renamed RuneQuest 6. It's a bit less crunchy and comprehensive than GURPS, probably attracts a similar audience, it's more focused and imo has more consistent, and better design. RuneQuest disappeared commercially for over 20 years so has a disadvantage as far as familiarity goes when compared to something like GURPS, but it's a bit more playable out of the book partly because of its focus, but also because RQ6 and so Mythras got a ground-up re-write when it was released.

The older games you mention have a strong orientation towards simulation, and towards detailed combat, this is not necessarily the sole interest of players today, or of designers and publishers. The older games are still there, and because of the ability to play online, it's probably easier now to find players for those games today than it was back then. I've no doubt at all I could get a game of Bushido going today, I have to say I would be much more likely to adapt the setting, ideas and adventures to my system of choice.

 

[Ragnar Carter]

What ever happened to crunchy games like Aftermath!, Bushido, Phoenix Command, Battlelords or Dangerous Journeys?

Everything now is D&D5, PbtA or Blades in the Dark. The closest thing I could find was Fragged Empire which considers itself "medium crunchy". I miss the old days when FGU and GDW put out some really interesting stuff. D&D4 was really crunchy and played well with my group.

Is there any call for crunchy anymore?

Runequest has more realistic combat and skills. Hit locations, no levels, fairly reasonable magic systems (spirit, rune and sorcery). We switched about 30 years ago and never looked back.

 

[Voadam]

Kamigakari: God Hunters uses a pretty involved dice mechanic of powers needing specific combos on dice rolls with abilities to swap out or save dice round to round to build up to getting the combo for your Voltron sword or using fewer dice combos for quicker less powerful attacks. It is a 2020 English translation of a Japanese RPG.

 

[Hartford688]

Well I was running a Bushido campaign pre virus. Still good.

For crunchy, how about Chivalry & Sorcery 5th edition? Came out last year. They have a Kickstarter in its very last hours for the reboot of Land of the Rising Sun (this time as a setting for C&S rather than completely standalone). There is a discount on the C&S core rulebook as an add-on to the KS.

Land of the Rising Sun

A Feudal Japanese expansion for Chivalry & Sorcery 5th Edition

www.kickstarter.com

 

[sgtnasty]

Well I was running a Bushido campaign pre virus. Still good.

For crunchy, how about Chivalry & Sorcery 5th edition? Came out last year. They have a Kickstarter in its very last hours for the reboot of Land of the Rising Sun (this time as a setting for C&S rather than completely standalone). There is a discount on the C&S core rulebook as an add-on to the KS.

Land of the Rising Sun

A Feudal Japanese expansion for Chivalry & Sorcery 5th Edition

www.kickstarter.com

I had no idea, haven't played C&S since the original. I will check it out.

 

[aramis erak]

I know BW but I don't know the others. And I'm as familiar with MG and TB as it gets. While, yes its works off the MG chassis rather than BW (therefore its inside of BW on the "weight spectrum"), it still has to qualify on the rules-heavy side of things because of all of the integrated mechanics and feedback loops in delving alone. Decision-points are well more mechanically and cognitively beefy and entangled (by design), for all participants, than MG.

No argument that it's crunchier than MG...

But for me, part of crunchiness is "how many subsystems am I picking from, and how often is it a contested decision" - my one session of TB hit was "Which subsystem is almost always self-evident, and when not, an A or B" vs the 3+ options in BW that are almost always available. And, given that it's "pick A, B, or C" as opposed to "pick A or B" in TB... more "does B or C add enough to be worth the time?" is crunchier.

In burning wheel, one is presented with 2-3 systems that could apply to any conflict... Single opposed roll, or one of the extended conflict mechanics, and which skill or skills are appropriate. At almost any non-combat roll, which skill is suitable is usually a list, not a single evident one, in BW. If using the extended options, physical combat has 4 options in BW: Simple opposed, Bloody Vs, Range & Cover, Fight! This is a decision point that, in Torchbearer, is between opposed roll and conflict. Social conflicts can be simple opposed or duel of wits (DoW), or (based upon BW Jyhad), an extended test with a number of required successes over time, but without using DoW... while in TB, it's opposed test or a move to the same conflict system as physical, just with different skills in use.

The actual number of decisions is similar; the range of choices to pick from is more robust in BW.

 

[aramis erak]

I had no idea, haven't played C&S since the original. I will check it out.

Yes, it's crunchy - I've got 4, and have seen 5... it's still the same core mechanics.

I last ran C&S 1E... back when 2E was current. I really need to purge my collection.