Any good sandbox module published?

[Matrix Sorcica]

This sounds great. Considering using it with Uthgard barbarians myself.
https://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=2690

 

[CapnZapp]

In general, I think it's impossible to publish a sandbox module.

As young people say:

Cool story, bro



In other words, this is not the thread where we question the feasibility of sandbox modules

Hint: for the sake of this thread, assume they can be made...

 

[Celebrim]

As young people say:

Cool story, bro

In other words, this is not the thread where we question the feasibility of sandbox modules

Hint: for the sake of this thread, assume they can be made...

Err, "No." Just no.

This is a thread where we give the original poster (you) useful advice on running a Sandbox Campaign relying as heavily as possible on published material.

This is not a thread where we pretend that something impossible is impossible.

You can publish a Small World in a module, although those "modules" tend to be the sort of mega-modules that end up published in hardback like "Tomb of Annihilation", "Curse of Strahd", or "Lost City of Barakus" But these are not in fact Sandboxes. The reason is that they are designed such that the PC's can go anywhere provided that they want to go somewhere in the small world that is described, and they are often given some hard push to stay in the small world. They are actually more akin to classic megadungeons where you are free to go anywhere as long as you stay in the dungeon. That gives you seemingly a lot of agency and freedom as a player, but not as much as sandbox play where the players through their play pick the sort of game that they want to play and the things that they care about. In a small world or a megadungeon you can care about anything you want as long as what you want is exploring the megadungeon.

The issue that the publisher of an adventure has is that the classic module format is like 32, 48, or 64 pages. And that's just not enough space to put a full sandbox in except in very broad outline where the DM ultimately fills in all the details. An example would be the "one page" compressed sandbox that [MENTION=22784]amethal[/MENTION] linked to, or the old school "Wilderlands of High Fantasy". In both cases these are just the very basic bones of a world meant to spark the imagination. The more modern version of these is a campaign setting supplement where a region is described broadly, but none of the details - none of the modules - are detailed in any way but are left to the DM to invent. You can definitely run a sandbox in a campaign setting, but you will need to add the modules in order to do so either by placing them generously in the setting or by inventing your own (or both).

So yes, in terms of a module a sandbox is impossible. A sandbox is bigger than that. It's at minimum a campaign.

Again, the real defining aspect of a true sandbox is that there is more material than the DM will ever use. This might not seem obvious, but if the DM knows that all the material will certainly be used at some point, then we also know that the players never made any real choice about what to do beyond the order in which to do it. Instead of a sandbox, what you had was probably some sort of narrow, broad, narrow structure where you knew where the players started, knew where they ended, knew what they needed to do to get to the end, but didn't force a particular order on the middle. (The most classic example of this I can think of isn't an RPG, but the 2nd act (Rubacava) of Grim Fandango.) This is in fact the structure of an Adventure Path like Kingmaker, and it's as close as an Adventure Path can get to a Sandbox because to write an Adventure Path you have to have some sort of 'gates' that you know the party will eventually go through in order to know the 'vector' that the party is going to take and thus be able to publish the next module with content relevant to where the players ended the prior one. Several Paizo Adventure Path's have cool sections that are "narrow-broad-narrow" such as the outpost building minigame in the middle of Savage Tide, where you explore the Isle of Dread while building up resources to, as it will turn out, resist a pirate invasion.

In a true sandbox though, you don't know which gate the PC's are going to go through.

My advice to you was practical. Rather than trying to find a published Sandbox, make your own by combining multiple published products together. And this is very similar to [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]'s suggestion of using setting guides for places like Varisia and Sandpoint and then pulling in content from multiple modules to create a sandbox where there is more content available to the PCs than they can possibly consume and they get to choose their own hooks. If I could point out one problem with the specifics of Aldarc's approach, is that there is a good likelihood that the players will bite a hook and because all of those hooks lead to quite linear adventure paths, what may have started with the intention to be a Sandbox could morph to a very linear Adventure Path because all the hooks carry with them a lot of narrative force to continue down that path (someone has to "save the world", for example). Better would be to collect a bunch of quality modules that have a more episodic feel, or which are on much shorter adventure paths that will only take the party through a few levels.

 

[Celebrim]

Now, bonus points for the interested student.

Is the Hexcrawl that [MENTION=22784]amethal[/MENTION] linked to actually a Sandbox? Explain what features that the Hexcrawl has suggest that it is or is not a Sandox. If it is not a Sandbox, explain what features could be added to it which would ensure that it played like a Sandbox.

I'll give my own answer to the question after anyone that cares (if anyone, and if no one cares, who cares) has some time to think about it.

 

[CapnZapp]

...

Reported for thread crapping!

 

[CapnZapp]

Now, bonus points for the interested student.

Start your own thread!

 

[Aldarc]

My advice to you was practical. Rather than trying to find a published Sandbox, make your own by combining multiple published products together. And this is very similar to [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]'s suggestion of using setting guides for places like Varisia and Sandpoint and then pulling in content from multiple modules to create a sandbox where there is more content available to the PCs than they can possibly consume and they get to choose their own hooks. If I could point out one problem with the specifics of Aldarc's approach, is that there is a good likelihood that the players will bite a hook and because all of those hooks lead to quite linear adventure paths, what may have started with the intention to be a Sandbox could morph to a very linear Adventure Path because all the hooks carry with them a lot of narrative force to continue down that path (someone has to "save the world", for example). Better would be to collect a bunch of quality modules that have a more episodic feel, or which are on much shorter adventure paths that will only take the party through a few levels.

This is definitely a potential pitfall of my suggestion. That said, this sometimes only requires removing the tie-in hook at the beginning and end. I recall, for example, that the whole Foxglove chapter of Rise of the Runelords only felt loosely connected to the preceding and following chapters, more of an interlude with some plot hooks thrown in. Sometimes this requires only taking out a character or episode. For example, the goblins raid Sandpoint at the beginning of Rise of the Runelords connected to the aasimar Nualia. It serves as a call to action, but you can also remove it. This also leads to an episode where they confront a goblin hiding in the city and later the goblins at Thistletop. Remove the connecting strings and let the threats exist as independent modules, though sandboxes usually also require that players have a way to assess the relative danger of the threats/modules so they can make choices.

 

[Celebrim]

Reported for thread crapping!

Is it within the rules to tell people that you are reporting them?

In any event, if you feel that strongly about it, I'll happily bow out.

But it doesn't change the fact that you can't get a Sandbox from a 64 page published module alone. A sandbox can't be fit into such a small framework. I can't see how it is thread crapping to try to explain that to you.

 

[Celebrim]

This is definitely a potential pitfall of my suggestion. That said, this sometimes only requires removing the tie-in hook at the beginning and end. I recall, for example, that the whole Foxglove chapter of Rise of the Runelords only felt loosely connected to the preceding and following chapters, more of an interlude with some plot hooks thrown in. Sometimes this requires only taking out a character or episode. For example, the goblins raid Sandpoint at the beginning of Rise of the Runelords connected to the aasimar Nualia. It serves as a call to action, but you can also remove it. This also leads to an episode where they confront a goblin hiding in the city and later the goblins at Thistletop. Remove the connecting strings and let the threats exist as independent modules, though sandboxes usually also require that players have a way to assess the relative danger of the threats/modules so they can make choices.

It seems I've been asked by the OP to leave the thread, but yes, I do agree that it's not unusual for early modules in Pathfinder adventure paths to have only a loose connection to the larger plot, and that if you successfully cut the threads that push the party to the next step, those "call to actions" as you aptly name them, then you could avoid some of the problems. For example, "Whispering Cairn" makes a great stand alone module quite aside from the adventure path that follows. A really sophisticated strategy would be to change the motivations of the NPCs and give entirely different hooks which tie to things that aren't part of the AP. There is nothing really wrong with having hooks in a sandbox as long as biting them is optional and they don't lead to a rail that the party can't really get off of (which is going to happen any time "the fate of the world" is at stake).

 

[CapnZapp]

I can't see how it is thread crapping to try to explain that to you.

Telling me once was fine. Trying to take over the thread is not.

If you don't feel you have any meaningful suggestions, feel free to not post. Also feel free to start a new thread if you want to discuss how the terms "module" and "sandbox" interact or don't interact.

But please now respect that this thread is about asking for suggestions on sandbox modules. I do *not* wish to argue whether they can exist; I want fun and exciting suggestions. [emoji2]