Any inherent conflict between per-encounter and per-day abilities?

[1of3]

In case anyone missed it, Vampire has been using "until the end of scene" for more than 15 years. And I never heard no one complaining.

 

[kennew142]

In case anyone missed it, Vampire has been using "until the end of scene" for more than 15 years. And I never heard no one complaining.

QTF. I've never one to believe that D&D players are such poor role-players that they are incapable of playing a game without trying to break the system. This subject (which pops up from time to time) and the the thread on the all too certain bad effects of removing alignment from the game, indicate to me that many others don't share my faith in the role-playing ability of the D&D crowd.

 

[Hussar]

I think in a good crafted (or at least good mastered) adventure the 5 minute mage never standed any chance.

If the encounter is a solitaire one it's ok that it has no impact on others by resting.

If an encounter is part of an adventure the opponents should get a serious advantage.
If a party delays:
Dungeons are reinforced.
Treasures are either secured or stolen.
Strategies can get optimized.
Monsters get healed.
Informaitons get transported.
etc.

In our campaign time is money almost ever.
Our group is nearly always very low on money even at 16th average level (v3.0).
If we would try the abovementioned tactics, we simply would be totally bankrupt.
(And therefore permanantly dead as the diamonds would be out of reach)

Wow, your dungeons are so well organized that a surprise attack, that lasts all of five minutes, gets the entire complex to react to that degree, all in 24 hours? And you're complaining about realism?

• 
  Dungeons are reinforced. - How? You mean monsters get moved around? Ok, fair enough, but, is this going to really matter?
• 
  Treasures are either secured or stolen. - A 5 minute attack causes the evil cult to abandon its base? That must have been one seriously successful attack.
• 
  Strategies can get optimized. - Again, how? Unless the PC's left a bunch of survivors, the monsters shouldn't even know what they are defending against.
• 
  Monsters get healed. - Who leaves wounded monsters behind? Monsters are typically either full or dead.
• 
  Informaitons get transported. - this, of course, assumes that everyone in the dungeon talks to each other. Certainly not a sure thing. Also, what information? "We got attacked" is typically the only information that's going to survive contact with a party.

 

[SSquirrel]

I suspect per-day stuff will be where powerful _noncombat_ abilities end up. Stuff like teleport, resurrect, plane shift, speak with dead and so on.

Pretty sure that races and classes says that stuff like this is under Rituals. There are some dimension door kind of effects mentioned for the wizard and warlock and the ability to move people closer or farther away for the warlock, which are likely per encounter abilities.

 

[Campbell]

I think in a good crafted (or at least good mastered) adventure the 5 minute mage never standed any chance.

Or they could you know just balance the game so that a particular number of encounters isn't required for the game to function adequately. Sounds like a radical idea to me.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

In case anyone missed it, Vampire has been using "until the end of scene" for more than 15 years. And I never heard no one complaining.

*Nods* Indeed, which is when I heard about per-encounter abilities I got quite excited, anything to helps link Storytelling System and D&D together is fine by me

 

[Moochava]

QTF. I've never one to believe that D&D players are such poor role-players that they are incapable of playing a game without trying to break the system. This subject (which pops up from time to time) and the the thread on the all too certain bad effects of removing alignment from the game, indicate to me that many others don't share my faith in the role-playing ability of the D&D crowd.

4E, in general, seems to be moving away from "ideological purity" and toward a "will it work in the game?" approach, which is good. I've never encountered a problem in my Vampire games over what a "scene" is; delineating time is just another part of being the DM/GM/Storyteller. I have, however, seen players scrambling from one corner of a dungeon to the next in order to keep their Bull's Strength going for the next fight. And of course, I've seen casters dominate the game outside the dungeon because there's rarely more than one encounter per day during overland travel. I hope 4E continues and improves upon D&D's tradition of providing solid play while leaving non-players on the Internet to complain about how the system obviously doesn't work.

 

[AllisterH]

I always saw the 15 minute workday not as an example of players trying to be gamist, but of players being simulationist....

For example, in the real world, people that do anything dangerous always attempt it with the best preparation possible. I've mentioned this before, but my friends are serious spleunkers and there's ABSOLUTELY no way my friends would go into a cave with only 1/4 of their oxygen/batteries.

Anyone that would suggest such a thing would be automatically kicked out and personally banished on the online community because not only do you put yourself in danger, you put your teammates/friend in danger.

This is the same way I saw Vancian casting. I always saw the "push on even with limited resources" person as a gamist as he knew that the DM wouldn't punish him harshly for that. Thus the idea that "Stopping after 15 minutes" makes more sense to me in context of the world (you're going to be facing down unknow creatures who quite frankly want to eat you...) than the reverse.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It makes sense before you enter a dungeon, but to rest after every minor battle for a whole day while your in the dungeon doesn't. Not only would you burn through your food, water, and fire supplies extremely fast but the longer you stay in a dungeon the more likely monster-patrols are going to find you. Also I can't imagine it good for morale to spend a week or 2 weeks in a monster infested dungeon.

 

[AllisterH]

It makes sense before you enter a dungeon, but to rest after every minor battle for a whole day while your in the dungeon doesn't. Not only would you burn through your food, water, and fire supplies extremely fast but the longer you stay in a dungeon the more likely monster-patrols are going to find you. Also I can't imagine it good for morale to spend a week or 2 weeks in a monster infested dungeon.

Which would be true, IF magic hadn't been so bloody powerful. Food and Water are no problems thanks to 1st level spells and neither is fire due to darkvision/spells.

For example , IRL, halfway into a really deep cave, my friends expect to be something like 80% of full effectiveness (effectiveness defined as oxygen reserves/batteries/flashlights etc). If they were at 55%, there's a good chance they would turn back.

With the power of magic, you go from 100% effectivness to easily under the 50% range when the mage/cleric have exhausted their top 3 level spells (a mage who normall has access to 6th level spells is WAY weaker when he only has his bottom 3 level spells still).

To press on after your most powerful member has been reduced to 50% power seems very gamist to me.