Any RPG systems have good Firearms rules and feel ?

[Psion]

Spycraft has decent firearms rules within the constraints inherent to D20.

I love spycraft, but the system is really built with cinematic superspies in mind. Gun damage is rather low, and there is less chance of "one shot one kill" with a handgun than in d20 modern. Which is saying a lot.

 

[Psion]

The best firearms system I know was the one used in 2nd ed Twilight 2000

If you want realistic/deadly, TW2k is probably pretty good. Of course, I had a character who was shot in a game and spent the rest of the session convalescent (and that was WITH body armor; he was lucky he didn't die.). So if that is not what you are looking for, buyer beware.

 

[buzzard]

I love spycraft, but the system is really built with cinematic superspies in mind. Gun damage is rather low, and there is less chance of "one shot one kill" with a handgun than in d20 modern. Which is saying a lot.

Considering that in reality you generally don't get "one shot one kill" with a handgun, it isn't unrealistic. In Spycraft, if you are using a reasonably large caliber weapon (at least 9mm), you can drop an average person in one shot which goes to wounds. This, IMHO , is reasonable. Rifle damage is appreciably higher, as it should be.

Now granted, I could probably see the damage being a touch higher, but they want players to be able to live through a gun battle.

Again, I believe this comes back to a lack of a shot placement mechanic. Mind I wouldn't necessarily want to go to the trouble, but if you want weapon lethality to be realistic, it is probably necessary.

buzzard

 

[kengar]

If you want a system with firearms rules that have a pulp/action feel that is still fairly deadly, Savage Worlds is my recommendation. It ROCKS! Quick and easy to learn too.

 

[BryonD]

GURPS has some nice points if you are looking for gritty deadly, but I think it totally overestimates the effectiveness of firearms as compared to other deadly implements. Someting like 7d damage for modern firearms where a greatsword does like 2d. I would agree firearms have greater penetration and damage, but that many more dice and that much more of a chance of killing an urarmored target? I don't think so.

This is exactly right.

GURPS handles guns in a you-get-shot-you-tend-to-die manner. But turns around and handles melee weapons (and other more historic weapons) in a manner relatively much closer to the D&D a-hero-can-take-it approach.

Either idea is fine. But they contrast poorly together.

 

[Desdichado]

I like Freeport's d20 Firearms rules, but it depends on what kinds of firearms you're looking for. Freeport are very much "olde tyme" early firearms.

 

[Psion]

Considering that in reality you generally don't get "one shot one kill" with a handgun, it isn't unrealistic.

While I agree you "generally don't", it's not impossible as it is in spycraft with small calibers unless you have an abysmal constitution. IRL I can kill someone with a 22 rimfire pistol.

Now granted, I could probably see the damage being a touch higher, but they want players to be able to live through a gun battle.

Which is precisely what it is designed to do, so why are you trying to argue above that it is realistic?

 

[diaglo]

Boot Hill

 

[buzzard]

While I agree you "generally don't", it's not impossible as it is in spycraft with small calibers unless you have an abysmal constitution. IRL I can kill someone with a 22 rimfire pistol.

Yes, but that kill will not be completed in a short time frame. It is almost guaranteed that you can't shoot someone with a .22 and they will drop down dead. Within the scope of six second rounds, .22s are not really lethal. Granted, it can happen, but the rarity is not adequately simulated in a game where probabilities are in discrete 5% blocks.

Which is precisely what it is designed to do, so why are you trying to argue above that it is realistic?

Because within the inherent limitations of the system, it is realistic. There are a lot of aspects of wounds (not merely gunshot), which are not adequately described by D20. Without introducing a fair amount of complication, you cannot describe every situation realistically. Thus we have to accept that since a .22 does piddling damage in most cases, it can't kill on a single shot. We know that IRL it can, but that cannot be modeled within our constraints.

To model the effects of lower caliber weapons having some chance of lethality you will need both a shot placement mechanic, and the ability to bleed out from wounds.

To give a nice example of .22 effectiveness- Reagan was shot three times with a .22. He took some in potentially lethal locations, but was not knocked unconscious, and did live. The man was about 70 years old. Now, if he didn't have access to the best treatment around, he might have died, but in game terms, he could have gone on fighting for a while yet.

Increasing the damage done by firearms would not increase realism. It would merely increase lethality in an unrealistic fashion.

buzzard

 

[Psion]

Yes, but that kill will not be completed in a short time frame. It is almost guaranteed that you can't shoot someone with a .22 and they will drop down dead.

Huh? Dropping you below zero isn't killing you either; it should be obvious from the context of dropping you to zero WP that I wasn't speaking of instand fatality either.

That said, I'm sure I could make a shot to the heart that would be lethal with a 22 if I lucked out and got past the ribcage. Not what I am talking about, though. I am two steps removed from that.

Because within the inherent limitations of the system, it is realistic.

This is doublespeak. It's realistic or not. d20 modern at least has a critical system that amplifies the damage, or you could have upped the damage of smaller calibers. Either would have worked. Again, it wasn't designed to. It's not a matter of "inherent limitations of the system." It "decisions of the system designer."

To give a nice example of .22 effectiveness- Reagan was shot three times with a .22. He took some in potentially lethal locations, but was not knocked unconscious, and did live. The man was about 70 years old.

Okay, and that could still be true if I gave the weapons 1d20 damage; you could still roll 3 "1's". You act as if my argument is that 22s should be lethal most or all of the time. This is a strawman.

At the same time, in the recent shootings in WV, 22 shots were lethal. Point? Occasionally it can be lethal. d20 modern can take someone out of the fight and kill someone with a small caliber weapon if they get a crit. Spycraft could have done somehting like this. It was a conscious decision not to.