Any RPG systems have good Firearms rules and feel ?

[buzzard]

Sorry, I mispoke, but I sense you are either misinformed or are being pedantic. Minions cannot critical in spycraft (with the exception, of course, if you take the right thread abilities using the mission guide.)

What does the inability of a minion to make a crit have to do with it? The issue at hand is whether a small caliber gun can drop someone. With the use of action dice on the part of the GC they certainly can. As GC, If I feel particularly evil, I can throw all my action dice into the damage from one shot. A pile of d12s (I had 9 to work with at the start of last night's game for example) is a world of hurt.

Even without a critical, enough d12s will blow right through all your vitality and wounds.

buzzard

 

[Psion]

Talks with EMTs, reading many discussions on gun newsgroups, reading many books about firearms and self defense, and a variety of other works on the subject.

Talks with EMTs had them quoting figures like "less than 5%" or "less than 2%"? Those sorts of figures don't come from anecdotes, they come from analyses.

Noone in their right mind will count on small caliber handgun for self defense because the odds of a one shot stop are pathetic.

Entirely besides the point. I never said they were consistently lethal, I claimed they were potentially lethal. This is another strawman.

Yes it would because :
A) Most of the instances will be multiple shots.

1) You have statistics to back this claim up, right? Again, you are guessing.
2) The WV slayings were snipings, not multiple shots. 3/3. Damn unlikely if the odds were less than 2%.

B) People die from things like internal bleeding after some time, which is not simulated in D20.

That I would agree, but would not argue it with you.

Ok, so you are convinced that the lethality of .22s isn't what you are talking about. Then I guess I have no idea what you are talking about since you are being unclear and/or slippery.

Who is being slippery? I was just defendingy myself against your mistating my position that I was claiming that one shot should put you at -10 hp.

Are you being deliberately dense?
First you are arguing that low caliber rounds have to be more deadly to be realistic. Now you are arguing that people will live through them. Choose one, since you ought to realize they are mutually exclusive.

I made no such claim. Stabilizing does not mean you will live through it. We are moving into the territory of arguing whether or not what happens after severe injury in d20 is realistic. I would agree that it is not, so we can stop this argument before it starts.

However D20 Modern, as I have said, will have a .22 dropping people 1 in 9 times. That is quite unrealistic.

Again, backed up by nothing more than anecdotes. Show me a study that shows the actual numbers, and that d20 modern is grossly different on that score, and I'll beleive you. While I agree that the chances are small, I do not beleive they are anywhere near as vanishing as you claim.

When it comes to actual percentages of lethality, THAT is a situation where your tagline "limitations of the system" applies. I don't expect it to match percentages in any great detail. I do expect it to represent a credible chance of death from a potentially lethal injury, a more binary representation than you are trying to hold the system to.

 

[buzzard]

Talks with EMTs had them quoting figures like "less than 5%" or "less than 2%"? Those sorts of figures don't come from anecdotes, they come from analyses.

Ahh yes, I'll get started on that criminology thesis right away to provide you with your stats. The accepted consensus among gun folk is that small caliber weapons will not drop people but in rare circumstances. If you decide that that consensus is not sufficient for you, well fine. It works for me. You are probably not going to find any sort of detailed study which will prove or disprove my point.

Entirely besides the point. I never said they were consistently lethal, I claimed they were potentially lethal. This is another strawman.

Again you use that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
For the umpteenth time, to be one shot lethal in D20, you have to drop someone. They must be rendered unconscious in one shot. That is undisputable as the rules go. The fact that a .22 is very unlikely to do such a thing is my premise. If a .22 cannot drop someone, then by virtue of the rules as constructed, they cannot be lethal in one shot. By D20 modern rules, a .22LR is 11% at one shot stops. I consider that to be quite high.

1) You have statistics to back this claim up, right? Again, you are guessing.
2) The WV slayings were snipings, not multiple shots. 3/3. Damn unlikely if the odds were less than 2%.

Sniping could be considered quite different considering you have time for perfect shot placement (which is central to the immediate drop of the target). With a rifle, and a couple of feats doing a bunch of damage with a .22LR is quite doable in Spycraft.

However, I have been reviewing the press stuff on the case. Yes, they do say it is a 22 caliber bullet, but they don't say anything else about it. The diameter of the bullet doesn't tell me very much. It could be anything from a .22 short to a 220 swift. We are talking at least a order of magnitude of variance in muzzle energy here. If they even gave an idea of what bullet weight was, I could assume the type of cartridge in question, but all they mention is bullet fragmets (which IMHO implies a higher velocity than .22LR, which is what we have been discussing).

Who is being slippery? I was just defendingy myself against your mistating my position that I was claiming that one shot should put you at -10 hp.

I have made no such claim, or even approximated it. I have repeatedly stated that a .22lr (which are the .22s fired out of pistols) will have to drop someone unconscious(-1) to do what you describe- ie. be lethal.

I made no such claim. Stabilizing does not mean you will live through it. We are moving into the territory of arguing whether or not what happens after severe injury in d20 is realistic. I would agree that it is not, so we can stop this argument before it starts.

Actually by D20 rules, once you stabilize, you live through it. However, we will avoid this argument.

Again, backed up by nothing more than anecdotes. Show me a study that shows the actual numbers, and that d20 modern is grossly different on that score, and I'll beleive you. While I agree that the chances are small, I do not beleive they are anywhere near as vanishing as you claim.

When it comes to actual percentages of lethality, THAT is a situation where your tagline "limitations of the system" applies. I don't expect it to match percentages in any great detail. I do expect it to represent a credible chance of death from a potentially lethal injury, a more binary representation than you are trying to hold the system to.

OK, so you want numbers that are not compiled (AKAIK), and I have to provide them to disprove your assertion that Spycraft is not deadly enough. Last time I checked, in debates, burden of proof lies on the first assertion. I am satisfied with the sources I am acquainted with. If you are not, dig up your own. Find me a source that shows lethality of single shots by calibers of .32 ACP, .25ACP and .22 LR. Have fun.

I still believe based on the information that I have seen that Spycraft does an adequate job of simulating firearm damage within the limitations of D20. The experience of the gun community (see In the Gravest Extreme, by Mosaad Ayoob for one cite) backs me up. D20 modern does what I consider a poor job in their firearms rules. I have already ranted about this elsewhere however (D20 OGL forum).

buzzard

 

[Enforcer]

Most NPCs have no action points. Only PCs and significant NPCs have actions points. Again by design.

Actually, that's simply not true. In Spycraft, the GC (Game Control; aka. DM) has Action Dice, and may use them for whatever purpose that Action Dice may normally be used for (like attack rolls, activating critical threats, and damage rolls--all for any NPC). Not only does the GC have Action Dice, but he or she has more of them than any player (the # is equal to the Action Dice of whichever player has the most, plus 1 for each additional player) and they're bigger (d12s compared to d4-d10 for the players, depending on their level). So yeah, in Spycraft you can easily make a .22 rimfire pistol make a lethal shot, just tack on some Action Dice to the damage result. And it's easier to make a damage roll lethal for an NPC's shot than for a PC's because of the size of the dice involved.

 

[Psion]

Ahh yes, I'll get started on that criminology thesis right away to provide you with your stats.

So you admit then that those 5% and 2% numbers come out of thin air?

I don't expect you to go track down the numbers, because, having been in more than my fair share of "gunshot lethality" arguments, I know how very elusive any hard facts are.

But quoting me numbers when you don't have any hard numbers is disingenuous.

Again you use that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

I know precisely what it means. It is fabricating an argument similar to your opponents but essentially flawed merely so you can have the appearance of debunking it. You keep trying to attribute to me positions I never claimed.

OK, so you want numbers that are not compiled (AKAIK), and I have to provide them to disprove your assertion that Spycraft is not deadly enough. Last time I checked, in debates, burden of proof lies on the first assertion.

Ah, but this is why I keep calling you on your strawmen. My assertion was that small caliber ammo could be potentially lethal. This is true. Are you saying this is not true.

Now, it is your assertion that this percentage is so vanishing that we should not consider it. Your argument that less that 2% of such lethalities is a new argument, not a refutation of mine since I never claimed any percentages at all. I asked you to put forth evidence on this rather exacting claim, and you fall back on anecdotes.

I still believe based on the information that I have seen that Spycraft does an adequate job of simulating firearm damage within the limitations of D20.

It does an adequate job of handling weapons *cinematically*. But the fact that a squad of minions could open fire on you and you not be hurt should show that this is definitely not designed to be a game in the gritty vein. The fact that if you don't have an action dice to spend, you can't hold a gun to someone's head and kill them should show that this is not a gritty realistic simulation.

 

[Psion]

Actually, that's simply not true. In Spycraft, the GC (Game Control; aka. DM) has Action Dice, and may use them for whatever purpose that Action Dice may normally be used for (like attack rolls, activating critical threats, and damage rolls--all for any NPC). Not only does the GC have Action Dice, but he or she has more of them than any player (the # is equal to the Action Dice of whichever player has the most, plus 1 for each additional player) and they're bigger (d12s compared to d4-d10 for the players, depending on their level). So yeah, in Spycraft you can easily make a .22 rimfire pistol make a lethal shot, just tack on some Action Dice to the damage result. And it's easier to make a damage roll lethal for an NPC's shot than for a PC's because of the size of the dice involved.

Tip for the future: read follow-on posts before replying.

I admitted I mispoke. The point here is that minions cannot critical.

But thanks for the rules refresher.

 

[tetsujin28]

GURPS. Infinitely expandable, so you can have as much complexity as you want. Entire books have been written in the product line to cover firearms from the most primitive to modern day.

d20M is fun, but in no way are the firearms rules "realistic". And that's not a knock on the game. For blazing-away fun, d20M is a blast. But for more gritty, low-powered games where guns are a real threat, I'd go for GURPS.

 

[buzzard]

So you admit then that those 5% and 2% numbers come out of thin air?

I chose those numbers based on the discrete probabilities which are derived from D20 rolls. As I have said, I don't have studies which make numerical claims. However my experience leads me to believe that 2 or 5% are too high for a one shot unconsciousness from a .22LR shot. In any case, for D20 Modern, which is th cause the champion, the number is 11%, which seems extremely high.

I don't expect you to go track down the numbers, because, having been in more than my fair share of "gunshot lethality" arguments, I know how very elusive any hard facts are.

But quoting me numbers when you don't have any hard numbers is disingenuous.

I explained by I used any numbers at all when I used the numbers. It has to do with D20 mechanics.

I know precisely what it means. It is fabricating an argument similar to your opponents but essentially flawed merely so you can have the appearance of debunking it. You keep trying to attribute to me positions I never claimed.

You are oblivious to most everything I have said.
You have stated that:
A) Spycraft small caliber weapons are not lethal enough
B) D20 Modern is more "realistic" because small caliber weapons in that game are potentially lethal

I have explained repeatedly, to a complete lack of a response on your part (other than gibberish about strawmen), that D20 mechanics have a discrete means by which a weapon is lethal. The calibers in question should not be able to meet those requirements(IMHO, of course, but that 'O' is predicated on some amount of collected knowledge).

That is how the rules work. You want .22s to be lethal in the scope of D20 rules, so that is how they HAVE to work. There can be no bleeding out, or slow death. It must be immediate for it to be within the scope of the rules (immediate being defined by 1 minute). A reviewer of your proclaimed stature ought to know the rules right?

Ah, but this is why I keep calling you on your strawmen. My assertion was that small caliber ammo could be potentially lethal. This is true. Are you saying this is not true.

You call me on strawmen as a means of avoiding my arguments that prove that your premise is fallacious.

Now, it is your assertion that this percentage is so vanishing that we should not consider it. Your argument that less that 2% of such lethalities is a new argument, not a refutation of mine since I never claimed any percentages at all. I asked you to put forth evidence on this rather exacting claim, and you fall back on anecdotes.

Again obliviousness.
You claimed that D20 modern is better- more realistic. You like the numbers which can be derived from that rule set. Thus, you do have a premise which can be numerically derived. You are doing your utmost to be slippery and avoid any position by claiming strawmen and whatnot, but you still have staked a position. If you wish to claim that D20 modern is innacurate, then OK. You are merely making nebulous claims, and thus arguing with you is disingenuous.

It does an adequate job of handling weapons *cinematically*. But the fact that a squad of minions could open fire on you and you not be hurt should show that this is definitely not designed to be a game in the gritty vein. The fact that if you don't have an action dice to spend, you can't hold a gun to someone's head and kill them should show that this is not a gritty realistic simulation.

Did you miss the aspect of D20 where most everything is handled cinematically? Do you wish to actually have a claim that D20 is granular enough to make a good model for reality? Are you making a case that D20 modern isn't cinematic?

I stated in my initial post, before you decided to argue with me, that D20 is not granular enough to simulate real firearms issues. I then said, that within the constraints of said system Spycraft is good (certainly better than D20 Modern). I stand by that claim. Within that claim would be the fact that small calibers, which often kill slowly, cannot be lethal in one shot in D20 rules and reflect most gunshot wounds.

I have said again and again to deaf ears that at best you can model reality, assuming the constraints of D20, to only a certain degree. That degree is that only heavier caliber handguns can kill in a single shot (to be more specific, knock below 0 wound or hp). It is a native fixture of the model. You don't seem to care about this. In fact you are deliberately oblivious to my points on the subject.

You also show a limited understanding of Spycraft rules.
If a squad of minions open fire on you, and they hit (which is rather an important distinction of course, but one independant of Spycraft since in D20 defense is all about the same), you will go down, depending on your level. I am assuming first level since that is more appropriate to discussion of weapon lethality.

If someone holds a gun to your head, there are rules for that situation. It is akin to a coup de grace in D&D. You don't need action dice to resolve that being lethal. Spycraft is not quite the flight of fancy you attribute it to being.

buzzard

 

[S'mon]

Re rifle bullets, the 5.56mm NATO round is technically .22 calibre, but of course is a lot deadlier than a pistol .22LR. Velocity is important.

Re 'stopping power', IRL a .22 may not be likely to knock you unconscious or kill you instantly, but most real people who take any bullet wound are immediately 'hors de combat' due to shock at being wounded - as much a psychological effect as a physical one. This is less true of people who've been wounded in battle previously (veterans), or those in an altered mental state (eg high on drugs, berserkers, dervishes). So a system that gives a 1 in 9 chance to incapacitate mooks with a .22 hit seems ok to me.*

D&D's dying rules are really bad, of course, but rem that even if you stabilise (as most characters reduced to -1 or -2 will), you can still die later if not attended to.

*The best realistic system for this I know of was Twilight 2000/Traveller New Era, where wounds reduced your Initiative, reduced to 0 meant you were incapacitated. A minor wound did -1 to Initiative, which would incapacitate Novices, like most civilians. A severe wound was -3 Initiative, which would incapacitate Experienced characters, while a critical wound was -5 Initiative, which would incapacitate all but the Rambo types. It did a good job of simulating the way normal people are incapacitated by relatively minor wounds, while veterans could keep going despite multiple minor injuries. For both though, death from mortal wounds worked the same way - veterans don't shrug off Barrett .50 hits IRL. Unfortunately the rules for determing a PC's starting Initiative sucked.

 

[Rashak Mani]

d20 based systems that are good with firearms would be Spycraft then ?

Only one person specifically mentioned... but even games like shadowrun seemed to deal inadequately with burst and autofire issues. Wrong feeling at least to me. (3rd ed Shadowrun... dont know 4th Edition yet.)