Spycraft damage for small calibers matches better than D20 Modern. That is my implication. If you have a beef with small caliber weapons in Spycraft, do you also have a beef with the lethality of knives in D20 modern? A d4 will not likely kill anyone, however, many people die from stab wounds.[/qutoe]
I don't have a "beef" with it, but I do think it represents a certain extent of cinematicism.
Now this takes your arguments into left field. A 20th level spycraft character is much more able to be killed than a D20 Modern character. Ever heard of wound points vs. hit points? At least if you crit a 20th level Spycraft character you have a chance of killing him right out.
And minions can never crit. So, exactly as a said, you can have a squad of people firing on a 20th level character and be confident that the character will not die. This is cinematic. Again, by design.
A D20 Modern of 20th level cannot be killed by a gun, under roughly any circumstances (yes, there are massive damage
rules, but by that level, you will likely make the fort save in all cases).
You will?
1) A 20th level character only has +12 fort save if they have a good advancement, and additional modifiers are harder to come by than in D&D.
2) Even if they don't, a 1 always fails. If a squad fires on you, you have a good chance of failing one of those saves.
You are really distorting the reality of the situation here.
If you think that using level one people slants the example, then you are plain nuts. Any high level person in a D20 system game is beyond human, therefore using them for comparison for realistic weapon damage is simply inane.
WHAT?
You say a 20th level person doesn't count because they are "beyond human"? How is that not an example of a plainly cinematic convention of the game?
I have stated that you have to take into account the limitations of the system before you consider things. You seem unwilling to do this.
You'll excuse me if I find the statement "if you ignore what the system is like, it's realistic" to not be too productive or helpful. When recommending systems that are gritty, it is entirely these conventions that make it more cinematic than realistic.
I accept "limitations of the system" as an excuse for things like matching exact wound percentage of real world firearms. But when the system is deliberately designed to be cinematic, that's not just "a limitation of the system." That's design.
You have repeatedly made errors in claims about Spycraft.
Repeatedly? I made one error, and it was not a misunderstanding, it was a mistatement. I meant that minions could not critical, and this is true.
You made one error. You have not redacted it as a mistatement. You stated that the CDG rules apply to the situation I spoke of, when it does not; there are specific rules for it.
So if you are keeping score...
As I recall action dice are a fundamental mechanic of the game. Their required use does not invalidate the presence of the rule.
Without action dice, the rule will never come into play. If a player has used all of his action dice, and hew invokes the dangrous situation rule, the person will not die from a gunshot wound in the back of the head until you deplete his HP. That is a fact. Stop trying to excuse it by telling me there are situations in which it CAN emulate reality; the fact of the matter and the pertinent point here is that BY DESIGN there are situations in which it does not.
Though now it is time for modelling 101, since you appear to be ignorant about how models are constructed and used.
Another ad hominem. You just can help yourself but to cast aspersions on me instead of paying attention to the matter at hand, can you.
FYI, I am an engineer. I am perfectly conversant with modeling. But that really is a whole different world than games. When designing a game, simulation is only one aspect of design. You also have to worry about playability and numerous other factors.
D20 is a model of reality.
It is just as much a model of fantasy and cinema.
Also because of the compacted range of damage options, differentiation between calibers is absent. A 9mm is a .40 cal, is a .45 is a 10mm. This has nothing to do with reality. The FBI adopted the 10mm because the 9mms proved inadequate in stopping power. The US SOCOM choose to have a pistol in .45 ACP since they decided that they needed more stopping power than a 9mm, which is the standard sidearm. In D20 Modern, there is no difference whatsoever.
This is a unnecessary lack of granularity.
That it is unnecessary is entirely your judgement. 99% of players do not care about this level of detail; what you get by catering to this scale of detail is a lot of added complexity for a minor benefit in simulation.
Neither spycraft nor d20 modern models penetration differences, either, a major factor in choice between ammunition types IRL. So trying to embroil the argument in classic weapons arguments really is not helpful. It goes beyond the level of simulation.
Now of course you, Psion, are just going to disregard everything I just said and calculated, and yammer about strawmen,
And you'll just come back with more strawmen (and deny the ones you have made) and make more prejudicial statements like the one above in preference to really addressing the issue at hand. That being the case, I really don't see the need to press on much longer.