Anybody else HATE item creation feats?

[Petrosian]

However, arguably, in 1e the single spell would let you make any items.

In 3e SOME items can be gained earlier. others not.

In 3e the difference is one FEAT per item type (potions, wands, staves, scrolls, arms & armor, wondrous, rings, rods makes what 7 feats.)

1 spell slot vs 7 feats (6 for a waiz who gets scrolls for "ree") is not what most people would call "easier"m at least as far as i know.

To get the exact same benefit, a wizard would have to expend feats at 1,3,5,6,9 and 12 on item feats. that leaves him one feat in all those levels to spend elsewhere.

Compared to what he is giving up, it does not seem "easier" just "quicker" for some.

 

[Mallus]

The play's the thing...

But how does it play? That's the real question. Adventuring to gather the components needed to make a magic item is every bit as 'heroic' as finding one. Plus, its so much more personally satisfying to plan for something, work to achieve it, then see {wield?} the fruits of ones labors.

It seems a little absurd to debate what's 'proper' in heroic fantasy. All that matter is what's fun...

 

[Aaron L]

I think a warrior mage, fighting his way to greatness, and finally forging his own magic sword when he has gained the power, is excellent fantasy.

 

[chilibean]

It seems to me that one of the things that most of the people that have problems with the magic item creation feats have in common is the arbitrary simplicity of spending the money to create the items.

How about this analogy: Suppose that I was a talented painter and I needed to find a particular old style of chair that I wanted to paint (lets ignore questions of why anyone would want to paint a chair for now). Suppose also that I have a wad of dollars burning a hole in my pocket. So what happens, do I just *poof* buy a chair that is automatically the right one. No. I get out the yellow pages, surf the internet, drive around shopping at antique stores, etc... Maybe I find it, maybe I don't.

Now back to D&D. All we need is a system to simply and effectively simulate the process of gathering the necessary things you need to enchant the item. So how about this for a system:

Each day the person working on purchasing the necessary supplies to begin enchanting the item he rolls a gather information check against a DC based on the city size and whatever else the DM thinks in important. Make a metropolis about a 15 and a small village about a 25. Or something like that. If you succeed your gather info check, you have found something you need for your item. The value of this "item" is 1d10% of the GP limit of the town.

Now make a diplomacy check to try to purchase the item. Have the DM dream up some reasonable DC for this check. If you pass, you can buy the item for it's actual value. If you roll a natural 20, you can buy it at half price. if you fail, for every point you fail add 10% to the cost of the item, but it still only counts the same amount towards finishing the item.

Now you repeat the process until you either fail by more than 10 to find the item you need (in which case you've searched everywhere you can think of and can't search again for 1d10 days), or you have spent enough money to have all the stuff you need to make the item (and thus can actually start making the item now), or you give up and head to another town that's bigger (or might have a lower DC on the gather info check for some other reason).

This would make expensive items take longer to make. It would also introduce more chances for the rest of the party to try to help find components. It would also be a nice way to introduce more side plot hooks (the widget you need is owned by a stingy nobleman who isn't selling unless you do ....). It would also advertise the parties big money pot to everyone in town who might want to steal stuff from them. A party without someone with a good gather info skill might be forced to hire someone to help them find what they need and always jacks up the price as the middle man. The town authorities might require spell casters to get permission (and pay a fee of course) before the undertaking any "dangerous" enchanting in the city.

Would a house rule system like this help some of your campaigns?

 

[Mouseferatu]

It's true that in myth and literature, it's far less common to find main characters (in other words, in D&D terms, PCs) who make their own items. King Arthur didn't, Gilgamesh didn't, Perseus didn't, Frodo didn't, Fafhrd didn't, Elric--well, Elric's an odd case, but he more or less didn't. And so on.

Now how many examples of myth and classic fantasy include wizards as main characters?

Sure, LotR had Gandalf, but let's be honest. Gandalf was an NPC, and wasn't really even human. And even he didn't really create any of the major magic items. Merlin? A myserious advisor, also not PC material. Ningabul of the Seven Eyes, ditto.

When Mr. Gygax chose to make wizards an integral part of the story--and to allow them as player characters--he forever separated D&D, even in its earliest incarnations, from the "classic" fantasy archetype. A setting that allows wizards as player characters is mutually exclusive with a setting where magic is 100% mysterious or inaccessible.

So yes, the item creation feats could be made harder to use, or items could be more expensive to create, so much so that PCs wouldn't want to bother. But then why would anyone bother? If magic items exist, and if PCs can be wizards, then PCs have the option of creating magic items. Nothing else, IMHO, makes sense.

I have no objection at all to restricting the sorts of items PCs can create, but the option itself must exist. If what you're looking for is a setting where the PCs are completely incapable of producing their own magic, the only really viable way is to forbid them from playing spell-casting classes.

(Which could make for a fun campaign, if done right. But it wouldn't work as the default setting.)

 

[bloodymage]

"These are just guidelines...."

I run a high magic campaign in FR and it's hard as a bulette's back for my PC's to create magic items. Any spellcaster with the feats and materials in the proper location can scribe scrolls or brew potions. My NPC wizards make a bit of money selling pre-charged magic items to other spellcasters because wizards are the only ones who can use the other feats in my world (I have no sorcerer class). Research isn't too much of a problem for augmented weapons or armor. Treatisies are available for a price. But to create anything close to original takes a significant investment in research in terms of money, time and risk. And none of my wizards are proficient enough to actually manufacture the item. A big investment is made overseeing that process. The biggest hurdle my PC's have to overcome, if they have the money and materials, is time. From start to finish, it usually takes my PC's at least three times the length of time listed in the PHB to actually come up with a finished product.

So you see, they haven't taken the DM's job away from him. They've just passed a lot of the grunt work off to the players. All we have to do is issue edicts and snigger as the players groan!

 

[Ace]

That's a "problem" with the system as a whole, tho', not just magic item creation. Realistically, a fighter should gain experience from hanging around town training, a wizard should gain experience from sitting around in a tower poring over ancient tomes, etc. - i.e. PCs should be able to gain experience without doing anything one has to play out at all.

However, this is boring.

- Sir Bob.

I actually allow XP gain in downtime. The problem is it takes <LVL> years to gain every level after 1 without adventuring.

Thus a warrior 5 will be in his 30's (1st level at 18, second at 20, third at 23 etc etc). Boring, yep but it helps me keep an idea of what levels folks are.

There are mods to this rule, -1 to levels if in a safe/non adventuring ares, Rough areas (Greyhawk city) 0 and The frontier or the like +1.

Commoners are generally also at -1 level after 3 as well.