Anybody else HATE item creation feats?

[Tzarevitch]

I just was thinking about item creation feats and it occured to me: They suck the DM's job down the toilette. I mean really, most of the arguments I've had with players were over what could and could not be made. "I'm sorry, but you just can't make a +1 Earing of Dexterity." or "NO, a bow of True Strike would cost WAY more than anything a stupid chart will say"

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble coping with the fact that any attempt at a low magic setting would be in vain if no restrictions were put on Item Creation feats. Your players simply aren't going to go "OOOOhhh a magic sword!" when the party wizard already made one for everybody. ::Shudder::

And don't tell me that the level of money was factored into CRs, thats BS, you know as well as I do that CRs were designed by what is essentially the same thing as "Guess the number of marbles in the jar".

Scribe Scroll & Brew potion seem to be the best to me, seeings how well defined their effects are, and how little my players are willing to spend on something that will get used once then dissapear. Hell, everytime they find potions they either use them ASAP (in the case of healing potions) or sell them ASAP (for anything else). After all, who could concievably need a Potion of Spider Climb .

Sorry for the rant everyone, but it just really pisses me off the way that my players treat magic so mundanely, and Item Creation feats don't help one bit.

Aren't you overreacting a bit? I have my gripes with the Item Creation feats too, but the nice thing about 3e is that it is easy to make changes.

I try to keep a low magic item game and reqire that the characters pay the FULL MARKET PRICE to make items, and the xp cost is not 1/25 but 1/5. Casters must have a stocked laboratory (wizards) or a significant consecrated temple (priests) to make magic items. I also go with what the DMG said originally and make the caster level listed in the item description the mandatory minimum caster level. There is also no real market in magic items in my game so PCs with surplus stuff are not going to get "full value" back in resale unless it is a trully useful item.

Lastly, I made it clear to the PCs that sometimes I will say NO to certain items being made. As DM I am not required to give a logical reason, I am just required to be consistant when I make a ruling. (No items of Wishes or Miracles, True Resurrection is barred from my game. Resurrection, Reincarnation and Raise Dead cannot be placed in items. Spells with xp costs generally cannot be cast through items.)

I agree with you that the items are NOT balanced and many of the item costs are obviously pulled out of thin air, but the beauty of 3e is that now that there are actual rules, you can make changes easily. If you have a problem with the rules, change them. I have yet to meet a DM who uses all of the rules AS WRITTEN without at least a minor change, so why should you be thr first?

Tzarevitch

 

[willpax]

Does no one require the maker of a magic item to have the mundne skill necessary to craft the item as well (if you want to make a magic sword, your craft weapons and armor skill needs to be sufficient to make a masterwork item, for example).

Requiring an investment in skills as well as feats would drastically reduce the number of magic item creators, I would think.

 

[PenguinKing]

Does no one require the maker of a magic item to have the mundne skill necessary to craft the item as well (if you want to make a magic sword, your craft weapons and armor skill needs to be sufficient to make a masterwork item, for example).

Requiring an investment in skills as well as feats would drastically reduce the number of magic item creators, I would think.

By default, the rules do require that a masterwork item be used in the creation of the item, but they don't "care" where the item comes from. It wouldn't be a bad house rule to require that it be made by the enchanter's own hands, tho'.

- Sir Bob.

 

[El Ravager]

Power = experience points = adventuring.

This, I think, is at the heart of the whole problem with magic item creation in DnD. In order to become a powerfull spell caster, you have to spend some time adventuring. Just like the PCs. A wizard sitting in his tower researching and toodling around in his lab is not getting experience points. In fact, if he is makeing magic items he is doing just the opposite - he is losing them. To me, it seems backwards for spellcasters to lose experience points by making items. They should be gaining from the experimentation and research. They should be learning. Doing things is the fastest way to learn. This obviously does not work from a game balance perspective.

As far as one poster mentioning the applicable craft skill as another investment for the player, that really doesn't happen. When you are spending so much gold to enchant the item, spending a few more hundred to purchase the masterworked item from someone is not that much more of a cost.

 

[PenguinKing]

Power = experience points = adventuring.

That's a "problem" with the system as a whole, tho', not just magic item creation. Realistically, a fighter should gain experience from hanging around town training, a wizard should gain experience from sitting around in a tower poring over ancient tomes, etc. - i.e. PCs should be able to gain experience without doing anything one has to play out at all.

However, this is boring.

- Sir Bob.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Thanks for the replies everyone. But along the lines of "Is every chacracter from fantasy a grave robber" or whatever, think about it. Excalabur was given to Arthur from the Lady of the Lake. None of the hero's in LotR ever even thought of making magic items, they were all made long before they were even alive. Oh sure, there's a difference between having a broken sword that your dad gave you and his dad gave him etc reforged and taking the sword of your archnemisis, but they still didn't make it origionally. I didn't see Gandalf making swords, even he used one he found (in a troll-cave to boot!).
Don't tell me that most magic items in liturature are made by the people themselves, they are much more often gifts.

There are examples of people making and using magic items in fantasy literature including from Tolkein himself. Yes Gandolf used a magic sword he found in a troll cave but it was made in Gondolin by the elves in thier war against Melkor. These same elves were the focus of the Sillmarilian, where quite a large number of the characters both made and used magic items themselves. In the Lord of the Lings triligy itself let us not forget that the One Ring that everyone was after was made by Sauron himself, while the elves of Lorien were still making magic items such as the cloaks and the weybread.

In less haughty fiction there are some other examples as well, such as the pulp line of Magic the Gathering novels. Almost all the magic in these stories were created and used by the main characters.

Granted in Arthurian legend there are no examples but then Arthurian legend is very low magic unless you are Arthur, Merlin, or Morgan.

Yes you are right that most characters in fantasy literature do not make there own items. But even with item creation feats most PC will not make thier own items. This is limited to a few spellcasters who choose to focus this way instead of using there feats for other things like Metamagic, Improved Familiar, Turning feats, etc. 3e is about choices and some people find that they want to make thier own items. I think if you look at the overall percentage of characters out there, like in literature most do not even want to make items. Are the feats broken, I will say no and just say I agree with those who have already posted.

 

[Petrosian]

Actually i cannot say this is a 3e problem. practically every game on the market i have played or seen has had advancement linked to successful "adventures" in some way or form. Whether its a bonus for best roleplaying or a "solve the mystery" or what have you, few make the mthod of advancement in the game based on time spent studying/training/non-action etc.

Now, some have directly limited advancement by REQUIRING time. Some have even had additional ways to advance involving taking large amounts of downtime to actually study and giving XP per semester or some such, but typically these were just add-ons and not a normal part of the games in play. Even in those the normal character gained most of his advancement in action and successes, not buy leaving the superteam to go back to college for a semester.

"Roll to see how Kid Flasher does on his American lit 201 mid-term." is not what most of us gather at the table for.

That's a "problem" with the system as a whole, tho', not just magic item creation. Realistically, a fighter should gain experience from hanging around town training, a wizard should gain experience from sitting around in a tower poring over ancient tomes, etc. - i.e. PCs should be able to gain experience without doing anything one has to play out at all.

However, this is boring.

- Sir Bob.

 

[Dispater]

I didn't bother to read all the posts but if it hasn't been said: impose material component restrictions. Like, you need the feather of a phoenix, tear of a fire giant that kind of thing. I know players may think its an evil dm call, but it works if you're running a low magic campaign.

 

[Plane Sailing]

An interesting example of contemporary fantasy where the hero creates magic items is the trilogy by Michael Scott Rohan - which includes "The Forge in the Forest" and "The Hammer of the Sun". I forget what the first one is called.

Interesting stories, and they focus around someone who can't cast spells, but can create magic items.

 

[Plane Sailing]

And I've gotten way off-track here, so I'll shut up, except to restate my original point. item creation feats don't really make magic items easier to create than they were in 2e. They just make the system easier to adjudicate.

I would respectfully disagree - back in 2e didn't you have to use a 6th level arcane spell in order to create magic items? Now a 3rd level caster can start creating wondrous items, a 5th level caster can make magic wands... The level at which magic can be created is much lower, and hence it is easier now to create magic than it used to be.

Cheers