Anybody else HATE item creation feats?

[kenjib]

kenjib, of the three "points" you posted, one is already explicitly stated in the rules, one is implied, and one is a campaign-specific assumption.

- Sir Bob.

Completely right on the first two counts. Again - sorry about that. Regarding the third however, I just don't see how it is any more campaign specific than any of the following:

1. The current rules that don't implement a research requirement, which assumes something about your campaign every bit as much as implementing such a requirement does.
2. The ability of all spell casting classes, including paladins for example, to create magic items.
3. The treasure-per-level guidelines and magic item economy of D&D.
4. The fact that creating items costs XP.
5. The fact that you can't create magic items if the XP cost would reduce you to the next lower level and therefore can't have a tangible loss of manifestable power resulting from such a creation and also have other times where you have to wait until you acquire enough meta-game xp to be able to create an item.
6. The time requirement for creating magic items.
7. The ingredient requirement for creating magic items and the fact that the standard method of obtaining these ingredients is buying them.
and for that matter if you take a look at the game as a whole...
8. Vancian magic.
9. Rangers.
10. Hit points.
11. Dwarves.
12. Elves.
13. The existence of magic.
14. The existence of tangible faith and deific influence.
etc. etc. etc.

I digress though. I suggested it as a variant rule anyway, so my point here is moot. Variant rules don't imply anything about your campaign setting because by definition you don't have to use them, right?

 

[LostSoul]

The Third Law is, "thinking too hard about fantasy is bad".

That's a good one, something I wish I could follow. Funny enough, I don't have a problem with sci-fi settings; there, anything goes.

 

[PenguinKing]

Whatever you want for your campaign is okay - how could I dispute that? I'm just speaking in general. However, when I speak of "assumptions", one must realize that there are layers of assumptions that must be made - levels of abstraction, as it were. In this particular case, spelling out an explicit research requirement for magic items is possibly inconsistent with other elements of the magic system. For example, it isn't explicitly spelled out where the "automatic" spells acquired by a wizard or sorcerer come from - they just know them. In a related issue, how about clerics? Since they automatically have access to all known spells they're of sufficient level to cast, is it logical that they automatically have access to all known item creation formulae they'd be able to use? Or isn't it? You can argue it either way, but which way is "right"?

- Sir Bob.

 

[Eryx]

I'm with the original poster on this. With the exception of Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll, I don't want my players creating magic items (MI's).

I'll tell you way...

Balance.
If the characters can go around creating whatever items they want that unbalances the game. It doesn't matter how you look at it, it does.
Are you going to say to your players that "No, your Mage cannot make that Vorpal sword because I don't want you to!" ?
You can't, because the players are going to raise a stink about that sort of DM control and it's not fair.

I am to an excent a control freak when I DM. Who isn't? But my issues lie along game balance. If the character's can make what they want, even with whatever multipliers on XP/GP or ingrediants you want, they run the risk of unbalancing the party.

I'm not just talking about weapons and armours, but misc items like Hat's of Disguise or Brooches of Shielding. Any non-disposable MI (Potions and Scrolls) has the potential to unbalance the campaign.

Thats just my view, if they work in your games then great.

 

[PenguinKing]

I'm not just talking about weapons and armours, but misc items like Hat's of Disguise or Brooches of Shielding. Any non-disposable MI (Potions and Scrolls) has the potential to unbalance the campaign.

In other words, you don't like it when PCs have tricks up their sleeve you didn't explicitly authorize them to have.

- Sir Bob.

 

[TBoarder]

Balance.
If the characters can go around creating whatever items they want that unbalances the game. It doesn't matter how you look at it, it does.
Are you going to say to your players that "No, your Mage cannot make that Vorpal sword because I don't want you to!" ?
You can't, because the players are going to raise a stink about that sort of DM control and it's not fair.

I am to an excent a control freak when I DM. Who isn't? But my issues lie along game balance. If the character's can make what they want, even with whatever multipliers on XP/GP or ingrediants you want, they run the risk of unbalancing the party.

I'm not just talking about weapons and armours, but misc items like Hat's of Disguise or Brooches of Shielding. Any non-disposable MI (Potions and Scrolls) has the potential to unbalance the campaign.

Here's the thing. If these items exist in your game world, then it's patently unfair to say that it's impossible for them to create it (unless it's an artifact). What you, as a DM have to decide is if you want to accept the D&D world as it's portrayed in the books, item creation feats and all, or you have to make consistant rulings otherwise.

In your example of a PC wanting to make a vorpal sword, you have a number of options. The PC can make it as is, listed in the DMG, which the character won't be able to do until 18th level. You can add ingredients, quests, gold, whatever you want to the mix (as long as you understand that every vorpal weapon had to have been made that way, so if there's more than one, and requiring the blood of the dead Tarrasque or some other unique creature, you'll be creating a campaign paradox), or you can simply say "This item does not exist in my campaign world." If you go with the last suggestion, make sure that the players know this, so they don't work their characters up in the hopes of creating a vorpal weapon only for you to say that it was all in vain. As long as you keep your campaign rules consistant, there should be no problems.

 

[Eryx]

In other words, you don't like it when PCs have tricks up their sleeve you didn't explicitly authorize them to have.

- Sir Bob.

There is that as well. As a DM you have to keep the game Interesting and Challanging, but if the characters can just whip up what they need everytime then theres no fun for them nor the DM.

I've just been discussng this with one of my players as well, and he makes the point clearly:

Characters should be adventurers finding and earning this stuff...instead of being magic item factories.

As they say.... from the mouth of babes.

I think his point sums it up quite nicely.

 

[PenguinKing]

I've just been discussng this with one of my players as well, and he makes the point clearly:

Characters should be adventurers finding and earning this stuff...instead of being magic item factories.

As they say.... from the mouth of babes.

I think his point sums it up quite nicely.

Should they, now? That's certainly one valid approach - but it's not the only approach. Certainly, not all heroes in fantasy literature are grave-robbing scavengers who come by all of their magical gear by lifting it from the dead bodies of their enemies - not by a long shot. It's pretty hard to come up with a "should" when you have viable archetypes that go both ways.

- Sir Bob

 

[Mouseferatu]

Maybe it's just my group, but I've never even seen a PC try to become a "magic item factory." The most I've ever seen created in a single campaign are a few very minor items, and one or two semi-potent weapons. It's just not worth the XP cost to start cranking out the big guns most of the time.

And as was pointed out, the really big stuff can't be created until high levels anyway.

I have to wonder--and I don't mean any insult by this--if the people who are worried about these feats unbalancing the campaigns have actully tried allowing them, and enforcing the gold and xp costs and the time requirements. It's not nearly as easy to create the powerful items as it may seem.

 

[333 Dave]

Thanks for the replies everyone. But along the lines of "Is every chacracter from fantasy a grave robber" or whatever, think about it. Excalabur was given to Arthur from the Lady of the Lake. None of the hero's in LotR ever even thought of making magic items, they were all made long before they were even alive. Oh sure, there's a difference between having a broken sword that your dad gave you and his dad gave him etc reforged and taking the sword of your archnemisis, but they still didn't make it origionally. I didn't see Gandalf making swords, even he used one he found (in a troll-cave to boot!).
Don't tell me that most magic items in liturature are made by the people themselves, they are much more often gifts.